The greens and prostitutes

DadWasHere, when you say 'grounded in reality' do you mean 'has research to back it up'? Because statistical evidence of potential impact of new laws is incredibly difficult to get, and almost impossible to rely on.

If we can't rely on research we need to consider logical arguments. For me, there are two main concerns - would legalisation make life better for prostitutes, and would legalisation negatively impact society?

The links provided earlier in the thread about the situation in Germany make me pretty sure legalisation wouldn't make for a happy life for prostitutes.

What about society? My biggest concern is about consent. Many people don't understand consent. (I certainly didn't properly until I started really thinking about it 6 months ago.) The idea that consent can be bought muddies the waters too much for my liking.

I am not pro or anti prostitution per se, I favour whatever best empowers women and the choices they make, so what I feel about prostitution flows from that. I could as easily support full legalisation or full criminalisation or the nordic model, depending. I am open to have my mind swayed to any feminist view in the spectrum as long as its grounded in reality. That said there is such a huge gulf over it, between legitimising what is portrayed as a morally valid choice that can be empowering and harms no one else in society on one end to what is said to amount to slavery, desperation, depravity, delusions of agency and damage to wider society on the other.

Those are all very valid points rosie

DadWasHere aside from the facts and figures, the link between dv and prostitution also makes logical sense.

Buying sex reinforces the misogyny of johns - they are vindicated in their belief that women's bodies are objects to be used at their pleasure, they are able to act out their fantasies on women who are forced to comply... why wouldn't they bring those lessons home? Given that most johns are married or have girlfriends, how would they be able to separate the sex they have with prostitutes (in which they have all the control since they're paying) and the unpaid sex they have at home? Inevitably the desire for dominance will increase and increase and their wives and girlfriends will suffer for it.

That's another prostitution myth - that it acts as a safety valve. In fact the opposite is true.

Think of the Stanford Prison Experiment - perfectly ordinary men assigned to the role of prison guards, expected to be dominating and cruel, and these nice guys became so comfortable in their sadistic roles that the experiment had to be called off because it was getting too dangerous. Ordinary men are capable of doing horrible things when they're in a social context that permits and rewards those behaviours. Prostitution does just that.

Prostitution and abuse goes hand in hand. That was the point of that statement by the previous poster.
I've literally just read an article about Sheffield police ignoring reports from hundreds of girls - it was published today:
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-31852118

Here is a PDF detailing myths and facts about legal and illegal prostitution:

www.prostitutionresearch.com/pdfs/Myths%20&%20Facts%20Legal%20&%20Illegal%20Prostitution%203-09.pdf

MYTH : Legal prostitution protects women in prostitution.
FACT: All prostitution harms those in it. Legal prostitution does not protect women in prostitution from harm. It’s not the legal status of prostitution that causes the harm, it’s the prostitution itself. The longer she is in prostitution – legal or illegal - the more she is psychologically harmed and physically endangered. Women who sell sex report high levels of physical and sexual violence, including verbal abuse, threats and intimidation - one UK study found that 63% of women in street and indoor prostitution had experienced violence.

Selling access to her body parts and faking pleasure has a very negative psychological and emotional impact on women. A study of prostituted women from nine countries found that two thirds met criteria for posttraumatic stress disorder which how profoundly stressful prostitution was for them. In two studies of186 victims of commercial sexual exploitation, women consistently indicated that prostitution establishments did little to protect them, regardless of whether the establishments were legal or illegal. One woman said, “The only time they protect anyone is to protect the customers.”

Prostitution is about not having a range of educational and job options to choose from. Most women in prostitution end up there only because other options are not available.
They do not have stable housing, they urgently need money to support children or pay for school, and they often have limited or no education. Prostitution is not labour, it is paid sexual exploitation. It is often paid rape. It is intrinsically harmful and traumatic.

As a society, we do not allow the sale and purchase of body parts, such as kidneys. This is because we know that it would be the poor and disadvantaged who would exercise their ‘choice’ to sell body parts for cash. Why should we assume that anyone really chooses to rent out her sexual organs.

pand0raslunchb0x, if prostitution were legal throughout the UK and I were to say Wales has the highest rate of domestic violence (apologies to Wales and the Welsh, I have no idea if it does or not, but I know for certain one country must have the highest rate of domestic violence in the UK), then I suggested it had that problem because of legalised prostitution.... can you see the flaw in that logic?

If legalised prostitution and domestic violence are linked somehow can you post better links than the one I saw, I would like to go read them and will look back in the thread for others... but its big thread and I may miss the links.

The base of that statement is true though, forget the stated location for a minute.
There have been discussions throughout this thread that domestic violence, low view of women and increased child prostitution is prevalent in any area where prostitution is legal. There is a direct link there, i'm not sure I understand your argument.

Where prostitution thrives the value of women's lives is low and the gendered violence they suffer has not decreased. In fact, the legalized province of Victoria, Australia has both the country’s highest domestic violence rates and child prostitution rates.

Prostitution is legal in various forms in every 'province' of Australia. Seems like poor use of 'facts' and language to me, trading on the ignorance of the reader to allow them to imagine its illegal in other 'provinces' by virtue of how its stated, thereby seeking to connect increased domestic violence to the legality of prostitution.

It is the SYSTEM that is corrupt. it always comes back to money and those at the top "pulling the strings" change the system and change the way we view ourselves as equals in society. If women CHOOSE to be prostitutes in a safe and discreet way, such as kim does, then that is her / their personal choice. they are self supporting, not 'pimped' out. safety networks should be available.
If kim had other options to train in a field of her choosing and earn the same or more in another way - would she take a different path I wonder?

Because it violates sense of self worth and people should be given opportunities to CHOOSE their own paths in life not be forced into it because they are desperate for money, have no education, no skills and no other options. Women need to have something to fall back on in terms of a career not be reliant on men for support. Investment needs to go into supporting this.

If you make it a viable option to view sex as a 'job' it undermines healthy relationships and human rights.
women (and men) prostitutes should have a specialised support network not be free to earn from it legally. many vulnerable young girls may see it as a money making scheme and demoralise / damage themselves mentally in the process and their future relationships will suffer.
Sex is not a commodity and should not be viewed as such, your article about the pussy club in stuttgart sickened me to the absolute core to think there are women being treated as cattle - or "cash cows". In this day and age? So fucking wrong.

If it's a legal job just like any other, why should it be treated differently than any other job?

pan

It was just someone's comment that it was the thin end of the wedge, you would like to think it wouldn't happen but if it's a perfectly legal job...well you never know I suppose

@berty
That is disgusting but more so that it is advertised in supermarkets!! What is domestic violence and sexism like in your area of Germany?

@Rufusthereindeer
That goes completely against human rights. Where did this information come from?

Thank you for all comments

Just though I would mention that I have mentioned this "discussion" to two friends in the last two days

Both friends when I said about legalising it were starting to say that it was a good idea...until I mentioned a comment I'd heard in here that technically (maybe in years to come) that people on benefits maybe sanctioned if they didn't take these type of jobs

They are not so keen now...and it hadn't occurred to any of us til this thread

Everyday is an education on here

Thanks again

I live in Germany. So I have just looked up the local brothels out of morbid curiosity and found that one has a "happy hour" (which lasts most of the day) where you can hire a prostitute to do "all your preferences except anal". And a loyalty discount. Two of them are open 24 hours a day, 365 days a year.

Feel a bit sick now :( There are adverts for this place in the supermarket on the trollies.

I felt sick reading about the "flat rate" brothels.

Isn't it a bit of a leap of faith though, that they won't simply roll it out so that they don't look weak like the Lib Dem turnabout on student fees!

It was said upthread that some prostitutes do pay tax. It may not be much, but i'd think it was a better way to use their money.

I don't really know who to vote for now. My friend also said I should join up and fight from within, but either way it will be too late for this election, and my fear is it would be one of the first things they would look to change. It has been a hard decision as I like most of their policies and I do genuinely think they are keen to give women a better rap than any other party. Then this bizarre oxymoron of a policy that wants to ensure men see us as a commodity and puts them firmly in power to use the worst violence and abuse seen in any profession in the world I'm still quite confused about why WHO, The Lancet and Amnesty aren't actually realising the 'problem' is with men and instead are saying legalisation is the way forward; as if they just want it to go away and not be part of the crime figures or something.

Also due to the conflicts around this policy i doubt it would be implemented on this election term...
I don't agree with a few policies but i'm voting for them anyway with the hope they can adapt to changes ready for the next election. Plus I'm hoping they'll balance out the far right UKIP views.

Tax generated by prostitutes? I can not see these ladies handing out invoices and chasing late payments nor filling out a tax return. It is run on the black economy ie: cash only - no income tax or vat. Very hard and insanely difficult to regulate.

Can I ask who you plan to vote for if your views align with Green policies all bar this one issue, which if i'm not mistaken places you centre - left, will it be Libdems or Labour?

It's too late to change manifesto's across any of the parties for this election. but the difference here is greens members vote and pass policies through a conference - Natalie doesn't devise them herself she is the leader, yes, but mainly the spokesperson for 50,000 members. Join as a member and put forward your change for a policy you feel strongly about.
If you stand firmly for what you believe in make your voice heard. Education and empathy is the way forward :)

OH and thanks Rosie - think he's gone now since the chicken and egg comment, but i'll have that in reserve if he comes back saying they'll all come running for help if only it were legalised!

It would be a vote winner if a party could promise they would put all tax generated by prostitutes back into their help networks and not be used for anything else.

If Natalie had agreed to look at the policy again, and we could join up and debate it properly then I would have still voted for them. However the chances of it changing before the gen election are slim and as we haven't got details on the legislation they intend to implement with the legalisation, I can't simply assume that they will.

There should be money spent on getting these women to be business minded, not using their bodies to pleasure men for money because they have little else to fall back on and there are no other options.

It always comes back to wealth and money.

The main reason I want to vote green is to challenge the archaic 'pyramid scheme' system from perpetual greed and amassing wealth, harmfully keeping it out of circulation for individual desires, and start investing it back into things like education where these women (and men) prostitutes can CHOOSE a different path for themselves.