The greens and prostitutes

I may be wrong, rosie, but I'm not sure wuzzio is interested in informing him/herself fully on what's already been discussed.

wuzzio read through the rest of the thread - there are lengthy discussions about whether consent is meaningful when it is in exchange for money, as well as the fact that trafficking increases under legalisation/decriminalisation and is arguably an essential component of prostitution that cannot be removed without abolishing the whole industry.

(and the "do you realise" is a bit patronising... most of the contributors on here are very well informed on this issue)

Yes, we realise that.

You do realise that the poster who mentioned that was referencing the point that things which once seemed unthinkable to ban would now be unthinkable to reintroduce?

If a political party talked about legalising slavery, they would be insane.

Political parties who want legalised sexwork aren't talking about legalising slavery.

You do realize jurisdictions that allow prostitution only do so between consenting adults and still ban crimes like trafficking and exploitation of underage persons etc?

Otherwise, we've basically established we're on the same page.

Not if you believe that people in some way consent to abuse...

It's a bit like a jargonised way of saying " sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me"

Which was always a load of crap.

This says it well.....

It's a bit like a jargonised way of saying " sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me"

Which was always a load of crap.

"I also find the quote "No-one has the power to make you feel inferior without your consent" to be bloody offensive." So do I. It minimises people's experiences. It is victim blaming and it hands the power right back to the abuser.

Not really sure why you're picking my posts apart puffins, you've just reitterated my points which incidently seem aligned with the Nordic model.

I've not lived a 'charmed' life, however my experiences have shaped me as a person. I think we are all capable of adapting to change and I try to maintain a positive mindset.

Otherwise, we've basically established we're on the same page.

Your message to those you support and rehabilitate would no doubt be positive and self esteem building. Hopefully with guidance towards education / opportunities, promotion of the value of self, encouragement to draw a line under the past and move forward knowing it is a basic human right to not feel inferior, be submissive or taken advantage of by anyone.

Glad we cleared this up, good evening to you.

No-one can make anyone feel inferior, I stand firmly by that notion and if you are attempting to achieve that here, in contradictory terms, i'm afraid it doesn't wash with me. I'm not looking to derail the thread, but perhaps encourage a wider view.

Nice try, but no, I wasn't attempting to make you or anyone else feel inferior, I leave that to abusers. Unless that's what you're accusing me of? I do hope not.

I am very happy for you that your life experiences have lead you to believe that everyone has lived your charmed existence. Most haven't, some have lived lives of utter hell. Those people did not choose to feel inferior. They have had their inferiority imprinted on them, often from birth, by the people who should have cared for them, and by a society which tells them again and again that they don't count. Suggesting that these people have in some way consented to their abuse is pretty abhorrent.

Often those people will turn to drugs or alcohol to self medicate the pain away. Sometimes those drugs or alcohol will kill them. A good amount of the time women, or rather very young girls will be prostituted by others, thus reinforcing their view that they are inferior, lesser, deserving of the abuse, and so the spiral continues.

One way to break this is to ensure that society does care about children in abusive situations, but, given revelations from Rotherham and others, this doesn't seem to be the case. Another is to ensure there are people like me about, who will help people rebuild their lives, and try to piece together their tattered self esteem, sometimes for the first time in their lives. A third would be to go down the Nordic Model route, where women who wish to exit are supported to do so, where the stigma attached to prostituted women is slowly being lessened and the stigma being transferred to those who should be carrying it, the men who use these women.

Kim is an unusual case within prostitution. Very unusual. The vast majority of women have little choice, not just financially, but also because they have been brought up to believe they are less than nothing. A view which is constantly reinforced by a society that does care and men who happily take advantage of them.

When I say girls starting out, I am talking of those who do this by choice, not trafficked or coerced girls, although they obviously suffer the same effects without having the choice.

I think Kim said she is educated and this isn't her only available choice for work, but one that earns a lot for little 'effort' if that is the right way to explain it (not sure quite how she phrased it) and she hasn't got any issues with that. We did touch briefly on the wider impact of her job on society - namely that she is aware of the men having partners and that there was a sense it 'let down the sisterhood'. To be fair we are all aware this is possibly the most money women can make per hour, and to the girls starting out it must be the main attraction. However what few of those women realise is the mental effect (PTSD etc) that even one encounter can have, let alone multiple, which in turn could lead to depression/drug abuse. The fact it is the riskiest job in the world isn't taken into account by these girls (or if it is they think they won't be in it long enough to be affected) but they may end up with affected mental stability as a result of even one john. At the minimum, as Kim explained, most of them would never want a relationship as they simply cannot see men as faithful. The impact of one john might do this, as I said, and to say that the girls should know fully what to expect and what the true cost is to them is not particularly realistic, IMO.

Puffins
I'm not opposed to your views, but generalising and effectively antagonising men who are of fair view is not conducive to discussions like these. We're all weighing up facts of legal and illegal prostitution here. The initial post was asking what is wrong from the legal perspective...

The quote is not offensive nor did I intend it to be, you've taken it out of context. There are people out there that are caught in the trap of the system, with money at the core of it, there are many women that are oppressed or mentally affected but there are also Positive people like yourself and people I know in the LD, care sector and drug rehabilitation and counselling services that are a support network for those who need it that can and do bring about change in society, more focus should be placed on these areas.

The perfect answer is of course if you don't like a situation, take yourself out of the equation or obtain support in doing so. If it is a personal decision for women like kim to rent their sexual organs for money then that's fine, as long as its discreet, no-one else profits from it and help is available if she needs it. What i'm saying is that if money is at the core of this issue and other options are available then they may choose a different path. This adds to the sum of human knowledge, no?

No-one can make anyone feel inferior, I stand firmly by that notion and if you are attempting to achieve that here, in contradictory terms, i'm afraid it doesn't wash with me. I'm not looking to derail the thread, but perhaps encourage a wider view.

The weakness I see in DWH's argument is "it harms no one at one of the spectrum" point. As far as I'm concerned it always causes harm.

My post wasn't actually aimed at DWH alone... although I can see how you made that mistake. It was aimed at all the men who feel that it's ok to 'understand' that things cause great harm to women, but until we have empirical truth are unwilling to act, or even commit to a course of action which will reduce the harm.

I also find the quote "No-one has the power to make you feel inferior without your consent" to be bloody offensive. However, that's probably down to my training and having worked with and for people who have very little control over their minds, and for whom positive thought, simply wouldn't work, and people who have been so badly damaged by people who have done everything they can to make them feel inferior... suggesting that people have given their consent to that is really low.

However, this is a derail, and not helpful.

yes you can. I suffer from endless distractions too, we all do.

Can I recommend this book: Focus by Daniel Goleman

www.amazon.com/Focus-The-Hidden-Driver-Excellence/dp/0062114867

it's helped me move forward definitely.

@Buffy
I completely agree with you that the current 'reality' may be 'perceived' as male centric and capitalistic etc but 'reality' also varies based on each individual personal views.

We have different concepts of what reality is and we have evolved consciously and live in different times to our anscestors. We now have more active influence on our environment AS individuals through various mediums.
People are waking up to the illusions of oppresion that has so long hindered and harmed us, directly or indirectly.

I take the view and always remember the quote: "No-one has the power to make you feel inferior without your consent"
Your body is a vessel as such, but you can have complete control over your mind if you given the right tools for positive thought. The conclusion of a 'perfect answer' is for each individual to decide.

If we take for example that even when you you are incarcerated for 27 years, as Nelson Mandela was, to emerge from that situation and still be the same balanced, unaffected person as you were when you went inside, to show that you will stand your ground no matter what others may try to do to your body, it serves the conclusion that there is hope and can influence others to adapt to this way of thinking.
I guess what i'm trying to say is that I think exploring solutions is the way forward, rather than just analysing the problems :)

To be fair to Dadwashere, who seems to display a pro view towards women, he is weighing up views and looking for answers in order to arrive at his own conclusions.
However, i'd like to add that prostitution is not and never will be the empowerment of women. Sexual freedom, social equality, access to education and choices of career paths ARE the factors of empowerment to women.

Dadwashere's active interest in this issue contributes towards raising awareness, researching facts, figures and statistics that are brushed under the carpet of society.

I say let's have MORE open discussions and debates on the subject if we are going to bring about positive change.

I have one more link for you to consider:
www.infographicsarchive.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/legal-regulated-prostitution-infographic.jpg

My personal conclusion from all of this is to focus on providing education, freedom of choice for careers and more focus on social equality.
There will only be significant changes if there is no longer oppression stemmed from the power and money hungry greed by the few at the top of the economic pyramid scheme system.

Investment in humanity and celebration of our consciousness as human beings will collectively and ultimately be our biggest achievement.

Ah yes. Allegedly pro feminist men need more studies and research into the suffering of women in order to be able to decide how suffery that suffering is, before they can possibly commit to anything which might reduce that suffering. The women suffering while those terribly important studies are done? Well, they can rest happy knowing they've added to the sum of human knowledge.

IIRC there's a thread about men like this. They're not coming out of it smelling pretty.

Dadishere:
You have a fairly balanced view but you do sit on the fence. if you are pro - woman then you would see that prostitutes ARE slaves to the system because they have no other options. Its not choice for most. There should be more access to education and legitimate jobs, freedom from abusive pimps and partners. The ONLY reason they are all in it is for money.

The knock on effect ripple of abuse from misogynists towards other women, in forms of domestic violence, abuse or oppression is prevalent across the world.

There are a lot of great feminist current articles on this IMO - feministcurrent.com/tag/prostitution/

I reckon you'll support the nordic model by the time you get through all those!