The greens and prostitutes

I'm not particularly au fait with the feminism boards but Mary you do seem to be very limited as a woman in what you need/want and expect from others. It sounds very fake; as if you are living in some bizarre novella from the Victorian era.

"I think rather than us chewing, the problem is you're choking and are needing to resort to silly insults rather than engaging with the discussion."

I will try to stick to make believe stories whose intent is to put my opposition on the same side as a evil man who had sex with a crying girl in future rather than addressing the actual points.

It is all my fault as i keep forgetting i am dealing with some on here who have the "victim meme" and "rape culture meme" as a basic tenet of faith and tactical debate choice when discussing any issue regarding feminism.

It is why i reject gender feminism totally as its tactics may seem effective in the short term but ultimately they are self defeating as they portray women and actually rely on women being seen as not having agency over their own actions because if something goes wrong "its the patriarchy" and if something later goes right "its still the patriarchy" just in case something goes wrong again.

Sorry no, i have agency over my actions and take responsibility for them and those who prefer to use feminism's "get out of jail free" card the big P are simply creating a imaginary oppressor because they lack the courage to accept responsibility for their actions or lack of effort.

Now you are welcome to keep making insinuations about my gender or that i am from the MRA as some sort of self deception that allows you to think you represent the views of all women but i can list plenty of other women who share my views and many of them are very well known.

I'm more going from the logistical perspective. To get to NZ, you need to fly. There are no ferries, tunnel or anything else because it really is incredibly isolated.

It is so much easier to bring people into the UK who might not wish to be here. Trafficking is not unheard of in NZ, but it is much, much rarer. Not just sex trafficking, but also trafficking in domestic workers, factory workers and others who are brought to the UK on false pretences.

NZ works to similar rules as Australia with regard to immigration. A points system, stringent health checks and a lengthy and expensive process in the emigré's home country.

(apologies for slightly disjointed posting, trying to do far too many things at once, but don't want you to think I'm ignoring your interesting point of view)

Interesting - why geographical specifically?
Does anyone else think like me that we have a middle ground stance here atm and it would be more worthwhile to have extensive trafficking policies in place rather than tackling the two tiers of prostitution at the moment?

What a shame that what was an interesting and insightful thread, with women with actual experience of prostitution talking about their (very different) experiences and, I think, all of us engaging in a very respectful discussion where everyone was being listened to has been (yet again) taken over by one very vocal poster who just wants to say over and over again "but my evo psych is right", despite ignoring the question of why rates of prostitution use vary from one country to another (suggesting it is a social phenomenon rather than a biological one), ignoring requests for citations to back up their supposedly factual claims, and confusing "is" and "ought" (some biologists have argued that humans have an inherent tendency towards violence - that doesn't mean we all sit around saying "oh what a shame, let's rip up all the laws banning assault and murder").

Again, I find myself wondering "why is this poster so invested in defending the right of the minority of men who want to use prostitutes without interference?" Because it does come across as the men who are her/his primary concern. She/he certainly doesn't seem to be listening to the women on this thread who are/have been prostitutes.

"Having done a fair amount of travelling, I'm going to posit that the NZ model won't work in the same way in the UK, due to geographical considerations. What say the people capable of debate?"

I think that is a good point and one I have considered, myself. I assume you mean that NZ has a different immigration situation. (To be honest, I'm not 100% sure what NZ's immigration rules are. I am just assuming that there are not several impoverished countries from which people can freely immigrate.)

mary24go you have not written a single word we have not heard many times before from the many men who have come before you on this issue. Why don't you chew on that.

Anyway.... enough of the gay badinage.

Back to the thread, maybe?

Having done a fair amount of travelling, I'm going to posit that the NZ model won't work in the same way in the UK, due to geographical considerations. What say the people capable of debate?

"IIRC, the last person who was so invested in arguing this very perspective had a delightful anecdote....blah blah.."

Interesting anecdote, useless but interesting.

FYI last time i heard people argue against prostitution as much as you do and use anecdotal arguments like you do were far right conservative men.

They used words like "immoral" instead of "consent" etc but the truth is they were only interested in controlling sex for their own interests and gain.

Chew that over a bit.

"Since you have a short posting history here, I can't see what other areas of women's self-determination you are exercised about. Is it just the "right" to have her body commodified? We hear your points on here all the time from MRAs."

MRA's can fuck off as i mentioned in another thread on here in fact i was considered unsuitable for their forums after trying to join.

But you can hear my points from Christina Hoff Sommers and other equity feminists and they are far more detailed coming from her rather than the MRA although to be honest i am not sure of her stance on prostitution as i have only just started reading her material.

Here is a interesting blog:

maggiemcneill.wordpress.com/2011/07/25/imaginary-crises/

As far as MRA's are concerned the more conservative among them are just as against prostitution as you are, interesting that you bring up control and well lets be honest and say that control is exactly what conservatives are about.

And incidentally, I don't hold the permission that bought consent is no consent. I pointed out it wasn't an uncommon position so that nobody had got lost, as you somewhat aggressively suggested.

Bought consent lies between free consent and no consent. Kim's bought consent lies close to free consent. A woman selling consent to avoid being beaten by her pimp is at the no consent end of the spectrum.

I do find it interesting that you are fixated on who has the power considering it has been several decades in western countries since women got the power as far as sex is concerned.

Oh my days! This has to be one of the funniest things I've seen on this section of MN for an age. I can't decide if it's funnier for how wrong it is, or how very very far wrong it is.

"I do find it interesting that you are fixated on who has the power considering it has been several decades in western countries since women got the power as far as sex is concerned."

Has it?

Why are so many women raped, then?

"mary24go you may be lost on the fact that if the woman wanted the sex, no money would need to change hands. By its nature, the women don't want the sex."

It would be more accurate to say that they want the money more than they do not want sex and again that is a compromise people do all the time in every walk of life.

I may only want to go to work on Tuesdays to Thursdays but if i want more money to pay the bills or go out at the weekend i have to go from Monday to Friday.

By your reasoning i am working without consent and therefore i am a slave even though i have agreed to do it for a amount of pay.

Just as:

By your reasoning i am having sex without consent and therefore being raped even though i have agreed to do it for a amount of pay.

Life is compromise and we cannot simply ascribe the term slavery to work simply because we would prefer to get paid to not do it or do less nor can we do the same thing for sex.

considering it has been several decades in western countries since women got the power as far as sex is concerned.

WTF? You're all over the place here.

More importantly you are deciding what a woman can or cannot do with her own body or allow to be done to it and i will always find that unacceptable.

Since you have a short posting history here, I can't see what other areas of women's self-determination you are exercised about. Is it just the "right" to have her body commodified?

We hear your points on here all the time from MRAs.

"As purchasing power over another."

Sure but where you see a difference i do not.

I purchase the services of a bricklayer and as such i have the power to make him do the job the way he agreed to when he gave the quote and i accepted it.

If he does not do the job the way i asked and is instead one of those dodgy builders then i either pay him less or go to the trading standards, i have that power.

I do find it interesting that you are fixated on who has the power considering it has been several decades in western countries since women got the power as far as sex is concerned.

It seems you want to make sure that men have to play by whatever rules you decide if they want sex and stopping prostitution removes a pay as you go option that would take that power away from you and allow men a choice.

More importantly you are deciding what a woman can or cannot do with her own body or allow to be done to it and i will always find that unacceptable.

Most women get that point, TBH. It tends to be men who have the delusion that women in prostitution want to have sex with them.

mary24go you may be lost on the fact that if the woman wanted the sex, no money would need to change hands. By its nature, the women don't want the sex.

No one is lost, Mary. It's not an uncommon position that bought consent is no consent.

HTH.

"Even if men have a higher sex drive than women, so what? That's no justification for having sex on someone who doesn't want it."

I 100% agree that is why i am in a prostitution thread rather than a rape thread.

Did you get lost?

I think you ought to take your own advice, tbh.

Then provide links to studies etc and i will revise my position if they are sound.