The greens and prostitutes

Stilllost I think you were just more confident. If a man does that no one bats an eyelid - and usually they call out jibes/insults rather than just 'give a look'.

Yes Jessica, I think you summarised well.
The first two seem to cancel each other out though, so I am going to only keep b under the 'reasons to legalise'.
Shall we send this to Nathalie to read through?

The comment about "teens who get offended if a man below what they consider to be good enough for them dares talk to them" would only ever be said by a man, imo

No I don't agree. I was an extremely pretty, academically bright and culturally snobbish teenager, "offended" is too strong but I was definitely bemused by boys not in my league asking me out.

Jessica your summary of the debate puts it very neatly. For me the collective harm outweighs the individual liberty.

The Amnesty view on the right to buy sex is really odd I think. How much of their work goes to protect the very women they are now compliant in peddling? Maybe it is some form of perpetuating their lifespan. As with UN it feels as if what was seen as a strong arm for democracy is now turning into just another mockery using and abusing women for it's own ends.
I'd like to think it was well intentioned but given the millions of women they have helped up to this point and their fights against anyone taking away someone's basic human rights, they knew full well the dangers of prostitution. They appear to think the male urges trump women's mental and physical well being and that damns us to being second class citizens.

And yes TBR, I was surprised by that too... not something you'd usually hear from a woman

Yep Jessica that about sums it up I think, though I would dispute the argument that legalising/decriminalising prostitution makes it safer for the women involved.

This is a great set of FAQs for anyone new to the debate...
www.genderberg.com/phpNuke/modules.php?name=FAQ&myfaq=yes&id_cat=2&categories=Prostitution+FAQ#5

Just wanted to say thanks to everyone who has contributed to this thread. It's really helped me clarify my thoughts on this.

So far as I can see that prostitution is / should be illegal because
a) it is harmful to many of the women involved
b) it is harmful to society as it undermines the concept of freely given consent
c) it is harmful to society as it perpetuates the idea of women's bodies being commodities

On the other hand, prostitution should be legal because
a) it would be safer for many of the women involved
b) women should be able to sell access to their bodies if they want

Obviously it's much more complex than this, but have I missed any of the main ideas?

This bit is particularly sad why women from their teens onwards objectify themselves regardless of what men think - no understanding of how conditioned we are by society to not see that it is not actually us in control here. I don't think your teenage behaviour sounds anything like mine. I was quite ridiculously flattered (blushing/shy) if any man dared to talk to me. Looking down my nose at them has come the more I have had to deal with them, sadly.

And sorry to disappoint but I am not over 35, am a size 10, 5ft 8, DD cup and frequently get whistled at and called MILF - I assume you'll understand that all as some veiled compliment

Can someone run me through how the Greens propose to get more global effect? I seem to remember something about them feeling they can influence other countries if kept in power long enough - am I incorrect in thinking there was a link to possibly being able to get more of a handle on trafficking? Sorry to sound like a stuck record but I do think they need to focus on this before introducing any policies on prostitution.

mary24go I'm sorry that happened to you but really you are not demonstrating strength in your posts here, it's more like rage and denial. You can experience your rage as you see fit but please don't direct it at posters on this board.

Apology not accepted.

You let your mask slip badly there.

I feel no more anger toward you than I do any other MRE, by the way. I merely pity you in your inadequacy.

Ah, x post.

Sleep well.

"Get over it or learn to like cats would be my suggestion."

Mary, I'm really sorry so much shit has happened to you, but I don't get why you are sending so much hate to posters on here?

Look im heading off now but just know that i get what you are saying and have no hate towards any of you even those i have bumped heads with, i can be abrasive to put it mildly and have been since i was a kid and life has done anything but soften me.

So sorry if my temper got the better of me and il try to be more clear when i post in future as well as ask any questions in a less aggressive way.

have a good night.

Wow! I haven't lied or been manipulative. I may have misunderstood you. But you were the one who stated that it is up to the woman to decide whether her partner can have sex with another woman whilst she is recovering from childbirth. You are the one putting her as the gatekeeper and ignoring the motivations behind why a man would want that. And although I maybe wrong, it is not beyond the realms of possibility for me to think that you would respond to a question with something you would consider reasonable.

Do you think it is reasonable? (A question I actually asked before you started throwing around personal insults).

"Actually I see now why Mary is sounding familiar to me. My friend couldn't understand the whole Page 3 'fuss' as she put it. She said much the same about women being able to do as they want with their bodies.
It comes down to the idea that if that is all you feel you have to offer, society has failed you. No one is looking at the person behind the tits. No one is going to want to have the person behind the tits working for their organisation in this digital age when it will be posted all over the notice board or on the company website. Not to mention that the men aren't doing it - and therefore it doesn't hold power for them. You can only do it when you are young, the right shape and colour. The 'power' the woman gets is short lived while it reinforces every aspect of male dominance and is on her record for life. Maybe we need to go over that for Mary to understand a bit better?"

Ah so i did not realize i was talking to women who were the wrong side of 35 and have had a few too many death by chocolates over the years.

But please go over why women from their teens onwards objectify themselves regardless of what men think and get offended if a man below what they consider to be good enough for them dares talk to them.

I know i did it and so did all my friends, we saw ourselves as commodities far more than men ever did and god were we offended at being addressed by a man if he were not at our level of worthiness.

Men did not make me do that i did it myself and talk about entitled damn we got pissed at men daring to look at us if they were not up to our level let alone try to chat us up.

I suppose the real difference is that i grew out of it and look back at what a preening child i was shrug and move on but for some reason your lives took another turn and you look back and only see how its all mens fault and you were just poor victims of the patriarchy right?

Get over it or learn to like cats would be my suggestion.

flora, that article perfectly expresses what I was trying to say earlier in the thread. I just don't believe that personal freedoms necessarily beat damage to society.

Wrt prostitution, I think the message that "women's bodies are commodities, consent is for sale" is very dangerous in a country where rape is so common.

You're absolutely right mary that you and your experiences should not appropriated and exploited by anyone else

I don't believe that that's what is happening here however

Mary, you are clearly a survivor and had a really terrible thing happen to you.
You sound as though you have chosen not to bend over again and instead be rather aggressively strong - understandable.
However please do not feel that you need to now rip every woman who cannot be as strong to pieces by perpetuating the worst of the internet because you feel women should "man up" or whatever. Some people have had the treatment you did all of their lives, since children. They haven't had counselling or doctors. Have a thought for the people less fortunate and perhaps try to understand that not everyone has the same strength as you have managed to find.
People have usually been in worse situations than anyone on this board. Finding the humility to accept we all react differently is very important if you want to discuss something rather than come across as ranty.

" I am just shocked that you would thing it was a reasonable course of action that a someone would seek to have sex with someone else if their partner had just given birth."

AGAIN il say it is not my place to decide for another couple what is or is not reasonable and that has been my position all along.

You however as a liar and manipulator have not only misrepresented my position as saying it is reasonable but also directly ignored my other comments regarding long term or permanent injury that puts either the man or the woman out of commission in regards to having sex.

As i pointed out already you are all about control and have no interest in helping anybody apart from yourself by controlling sex socially just like you do in your personal life.

You would make a superb male conservative.