The greens and prostitutes

KimCar those statistics are highly questionable. We had a punter on here last year who was king of C&P'ing surveys. The ones he posted on trafficking excluded women who were "in love" with their pimps and women who "chose" to be transported to the UK for prostitution because their Hs had been killed in war zones and life was untenable for a single woman in their home country. One was a doctor. These were put into the category of economic migrants, not trafficked women.

As to why men use prostitutes, based on the Invisible Men project, the punters who have been on here and various newspaper, TV and radio interviews with punters I've seen over the last few years, I'd say the common denominator is entitlement combined with a wilfull blindness to the sexuality or well-being of the woman. In particular, it's not that they need sex, it's that they want a type of sex they can't get elsewhere. It might be a young, pretty woman, a porn sex experience or a racialised exotic experience. In each case, what they are buying is the ability not to care if the woman is enjoying herself. Even the even more grim sounding girl-friend experience, of watching a movie with a glass of wine or something before sex, the punters don't want a real GF experience but an idealised one where the woman centres the man. It's all about entitlement and I don't want to encounter men who think these things about women have been given the legitimacy of legalisation or decriminalisation.

The Nordic model isn't perfect, but, it has changed attitudes toward men who use prostitutes. They are now seen as the human inadequates they are.

This thread is fast-moving and now I can't find the post where someone said that while I describe many of my clients as lovely, they are not men they would want around them or their children.

Well, I would have to say: they already are. I don't mean to say that your husband or brother or whomever is seeing prostitutes. I am only saying that these men are literally indistinguishable from anyone else. When I say that the men I see are not abusive, but are actually quite normal and often attractive and kind, I want to make it clear that I am not deluded. I don't inhabit some netherworld where I no longer know what normal looks like. I operate in the same world you do and encounter people all over the place and my clients are in no way different from the guy at the Post Office or my children's head teacher or my next door neighbour.

And, when I say that they are not abusive, I mean that I am in a position to judge pretty accurately what their attitudes are towards sex and towards me as a person. I have encountered men who have bad attitudes and it's pretty obvious. The norm, however, is a regular person - with all the regular set of virtues and flaws as any human. They express dismay and even contrition if they ever think they have offended me. (For example, a man might stick his tongue in my ear and I will let him know I don't like it. He will look abashed and apologise.) They are genuinely keen to engage in sex with someone who is happy to be there.

I had read stories while working in Vietnam about girls who had paid what they thought were employment agencies to get jobs in the west/other parts of Asia, ending up trafficked.

Also there are people paying these gangs to get them to countries and then end up held hostage while they 'pay back' their fee.

So it works out for the gangs either way, we only hear about it when one of them escapes.

Devel - I agree - I don't think Nordic or NZ models work and they are a waste of time and goodwill. I do think challenging men about the fact they are more likely to kill their partners and the social structure of how men view women are the only things that could potentially lead to abolition of prostitution without the need for criminalising or enforcement.

So why would pimps go to the trouble of trafficking women if there were enough women who wanted to do it voluntarily? This is just as true in somewhere like Germany where it's legal as here in the UK. It doesn't make business sense, and traffickers and pimps are very good businessmen. The fact that they continue to go to all the effort of trafficking reveals that there just aren't enough women who are prepared to go into prostitution without being coerced.

You make a good point. But, there is an alternate take on this: there may not be anything like the scale of trafficking you think there is. As I said a couple of days ago, plenty of women from poor countries want to go work in richer countries, and they are willing to do so through someone who can facilitate it. There are American and British women who go to the Middle East to work, either independently or through agencies, and there are women from Eastern Europe who come here. In either case, relying on someone to facilitate it does put the woman in a vulnerable position and they can be taken advantage of. However, the fact remains that many of these women knowingly and willingly go abroad to work as prostitutes.

There are statistics bandied about regarding trafficking in the sense of coercion - not the same thing as economic migration - but it appears that very few cases have actually been proven/prosecuted. This is not to say it doesn't happen, but the "slavery" idea is probably not the norm.

I think there are several elements at play in why men pay for sex. Fundamentally it's a sexual drive fuelling it. However following on from that it is more complex.

Perhaps for some it is about power (either consciously or unconsciously). Yet still for others they probably think as little about the individual sex worker and their circumstances as possible (and I suspect may well give the endeavour a second thought if they did!).

If you think about the glamorous smoke and mirrors that surround the whole thing this illusion is essential. We have talked about the happy hooker narrative being dominant, but I think this has to be so lest people look at the potential realities to bring it all crashing down.

I wouldn't like to deny that women like kim exist and engage and even enjoy aspects of the job, but as with anything that is marketed as indeed the sex industry is I assume 98% is bullshit just in general principle.

I am coming round to thinking that the legalisation vs criminisation debate is becoming a bit of a red herring. Male attitudes towards sex need analysis and scrutiny. The law as it stands needs to be used properly and prostituted women need to be taken seriously.

N.B. My red herring point isn't meant as a challenge to those who back the criminalisation solution. In fact I respect the strength of the ethical position, I more mean that it often gets bogged down in mires of libertarianism, and the data isn't strong enough for us to reach consensus on it.

yy rosie. Prostitution is a demand led industry, hence the trafficking. I think that is very important to understand when you are looking at ways of tackling the industry. Tackle the demand.

On this topic of legalisation - the way I've heard it explained is this...

Trafficking is expensive for the traffickers. Yes, they eventually end up with the profits from a sex slave, but they have to put in a lot of initial capital. They have to send people out to the countries where the women/girls are trafficked from, spend time grooming them, or setting up dodgy business fronts or whatever, and then put money and effort into transporting them back. A certain proportion of the women will escape or be caught by law enforcement, and many of them will also end up unable to work because of illness or even death. And then there's always the risk of being caught and facing imprisonment and/or huge fines.

So why would pimps go to the trouble of trafficking women if there were enough women who wanted to do it voluntarily? This is just as true in somewhere like Germany where it's legal as here in the UK. It doesn't make business sense, and traffickers and pimps are very good businessmen. The fact that they continue to go to all the effort of trafficking reveals that there just aren't enough women who are prepared to go into prostitution without being coerced.

I've often heard advocates of the sex industry say that there are lots of shitty jobs etc., why should prostitution be any different? But while working in McDonalds might be a shitty job, McDonalds don't have to traffic people over from Eastern Europe to make up the numbers. Even criminal industries like drug dealing don't need to do that - there are no shortage of people who want to make money dealing drugs, even if it's dangerous and criminal. The sex industry is the only 'business' that paints itself as legitimate but can't persuade enough employees to work for them and so is forced to traffic the rest.

=> All the regulation in the world isn't going to make prostitution into a legitimate business, it will always be largely a criminal enterprise.

I deviated from why I was thinking of him - the male side of the sex trade.
I know it isn't always comparable but do they also have male conferences on rent boys or whatever the up to date name is? I never hear much of that side of it and I was wondering if the figures are combined or just for female prostitutes?

I agree that the prostitutes should not be prosecuted and that punters should be.

Though prostitution for me is part of the bad sex construct we have between men and women of buying sex, whether outright through prostitution or by proxy "the man should pay brigade".

This gives the societal impression in society that men expect to be able to buy sex and if a women doesn't give it to them he hasn't paid them enough (lavished gifts etc).

I wouldn't think of it as being a failure, but in today's media it does seem to equate to being ugly/old/frigid or even a feminist!
The idea it is a personal choice baffles many people.
To me the idea of rising STD's and the porn culture men now have (IME they bang away at you like a screen door flapping in the wind) means I would also be happier using my imagination. A long forgotten art form if you ask me!

No, I don't think that's the case for the majority.

Many men having sex with prostitutes are in sexual relationships or could be. Just as many men who rape are in relationships. It's about power more often than desperation.

IMO if they had any real qualities they could go out to a bar and chat up someone who wants to have sex with them. Enough women have no strings sex out there with few expectations. The fact they want to pay suggests either an inability to do this or a desire to dominate by being able to pay at the very least.

No man who resorts to using prostitutes is likely to be a great catch, IMO. I know Kim thinks some of the ones she sees are nice/fit whatever, long term they are not going to be anyone I would want around myself of my children.

I think it would be different for every man. However there is always going to be is a mix of power, dominance, illicitness and some who cannot form meaningful relationships who are more than likely shunned from women in real life because they are mentally disturbed. Also excessively old men, fat men, incontinent men - basically many men who most women wouldn't find attractive. I also think some men think of it like a memento - the equivalent of buying a trinket on holiday.

No it should never be allowed to go via jobcentre - ridiculous idea! Outraged at that. "Let's free up all of the real jobs for the men" ! pffft.

Ok, I haven't changed my mind on legalisation. I'm aware that it would cause prices to drop if trafficking isn't tackled.
However for argument's sake, say trafficking was tackled to a greater extent. Could there not be a set minimum fee for services and the prostitute can charge more but not less (she would then be breaking the law). I know that is an odd idea, putting a price on acts, but it is what they do already, so making a national 'minimum wage for acts' could possibly make trafficked girls more obvious (the tax man would not be able to tally hours and wages if they are undercharging for one, and rumours would be like wild fire highlighting these brothels to cops).
Just an idea. As I said I haven't thought much on the benefits of legalisation as I don't agree with it. If it happens I would want some form of benefit for women back - such as the database system, DNA records and a minimum wage.