Femsplaining

BuffyEpistemiwhatsit

Buffy, I entirely agree and I recognise that the derailing of that nature does occur and is unacceptable. I try not to be those men, in among the other thousand types of masculinity I'm required to not express.

I honestly did not seek to derail a discussion regarding violence against women. What I was seeking to participate in was a discussion of whether there are possible circumstances where a woman dismisses a male view of something, for example gender victimisation due to masculinity, because within that limited sphere she considers herself to have a greater knowledge that might not automatically be true. I do not claim that women as a class do not have a greater experience of gender violence and therefore do not have the right to claim that women as a class possess superior knowledge of such experiences - only that on an individual level such dismissal of the validity of mens reported experiences does occur. When I saw a comment which could potentially be read as doing so, I thought to use it as an example and therefore support my position. I failed to do so due to a communication error on my part. I understand and recognise my failure and will seek, if permitted to continue participating, to continue improving my communication skills in this forum.

Never mind, if anyone else is interested Raewyn Connell has a very big website.

Hey Buffy, is that article you mentioned behind the usual paywalls? Only this caught my attention "It's interesting, there seems to be a whole big strand of research on 'businessmen' that's trying to shed light on why capitalism is so exploitative…" Rang some very big bells.

ifyourehoppyandyouknowit

I'm sorry. As I tried to explain earlier, I failed to say that only some feminists are dismissive of the experience of male victims. Subsequently, as an entirely natural reaction to my own communication failure, my own experiences were dismissed as invalid. As I said, the reaction was inevitable due to my own error and I accept responsibility.

It's where you accused feminists of dismissing men's experiences, and when e explained that actually lots of feminists are concerned about male victims of violence and the patriarchy, you dismissed us all.

PetulaGordino

I am not asking anyone to jump through hoops. I'm listening and learning all the time and many people on this thread have already been educational and informative. I don't understand the offence I have given.

Right meph, lay out the hoops you wish feminists to jump through, and what you deem to be proof enough that they have jumped through them, before you think them worthy of being listened to. And then any feminists reading can decide whether they have the time and energy to prove themselves worthy of educating you as you wish.

ifyourehoppyandyouknowit

I do not disagree with anything that you say. However, I would point out that a woman's perspective is unlikely to be a good position to establish whether or not someone has an antipathy towards male victims. That is somewhat implying that you know better what it is like to experience such antipathy, which brings us back to the original subject of the thread.

Not that fortunate, all the feminists I know are also sympathetic to men who have been victims of of violence.

The problem comes when men (as a class, NAM) espouse how I , as a feminist, should be spending my time and energy to making sure that male victims of violence are supported and violence against men is given as much attention. While sitting and pondering their own navels. Demanding women solve mens problems. Male on male violence is a huge problem, as is male suicide. Perhaps if all the men diverted the energy they spend telling feminists all the things they are doing wrong, on actually confronting the issues and their root causes, something would actually change.

PetulaGordino
You are fortunate in the feminists that you know. I automatically assume that most feminists are sympathetic towards victims of violence. Sadly I've been proved wrong in the past.

MissyMelMo

I am here to learn. Learning without questioning leads to poor outcomes. But questioning is a search for clarity, not a criticism. I consider myself to possess an inferior level of understanding and I'm therefore forced to question more.

MissyMelMo

It the DV figure British or world wide?

MephistophelesApprentice

I'm with MissyMelMo.

KNOW YOUR PLACE, MAN.

All the feminists I know are entirely empathetic to violence that men experience

I'm just not sure why they should be expected to prove that every time they want to talk about the gendered violence that men as a group mete out to women as a group

PetulaGordino

Two profound failures of communication in my part. I wanted to indicate that I accept the majority of violence is from men towards women, but in an individual level gendered violence can still go the other way and to minimise that experience to its rarity is unfair. The other failure was an honest 'some' in front of 'feminists'. I know that feminism includes a huge variety of individual and collective perspectives.

MissyMelMo

I would not question the morality of the division of resources, but I would question the division of empathy and compassion.

Why are you so sensitive to talking about men as a group when you are happy to tell us what all feminists do and say and think?

Where is the evidence that it is feminism that stops men accessing support when they experience domestic violence? My reading and contact with people who work with men who experience DV indicate that it is patriarchal ideals of masculinity that serve to perpetuate this, which is something feminism also works against.

MissyMelMo

I very much hope you're talking of men as a class and women as a class, as I can assure you that some men can and do suffer at the hands of some women. It is feminists who claim they solely can speak on the subject of gendered violence who undermine the efforts of such victims to seek assistance or services to provide it. Indeed, it is an example of the impact femsplaining can have, despite the fact that it can only be a viable concept in the field of gender relations.

That's fine, Lurcio, I do understand how I can come across. I do want to engage, because these issues are important to me, and I don't want to antagonise anyone on here inadvertently.

It's the same as mansplaining - a derogatory way of shutting someone up and minimising their point of view.

btw, sorry for being short with you upthread, Meph - I've now remembered that you explained why sometimes your posts come across as the sort of unnecessarily nit-picky sort which make my hackles rise - but it's because, as you've explained in the past, you sometimes struggle with expressing the distinction between detail and overall issue (if I'm remembering you right from other threads). I do think you are genuinely trying to engage, even though it sometimes goes awry (as it does for all of us).

Dervel

I do not disagree.