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Original poster

Men who parade how "feminist" they are but who can fuck right off...

416 replies

ArcheryAnnie · 03/03/2015 23:20

...as they don't actually want to listen to women who disagree with them in any way.

I am not including common-or-garden arseholes here, as the list would be a billion posts long and the internet would explode. I am talking about the kind of man who writes a long, handwringing article in the Guardian about how we should all listen to feminists more, but then deletes most of the comments from actual feminists that are posted on it.

The two currently at the top of my very long List are:
Ally Fogg
Owen Jones

Nominations, please.

OP posts:
Original poster
ArcheryAnnie · 08/03/2015 10:31

That's it, AskBasil. He's picked a side (against women) and will stick with it, come hell or high water.

I have changed my mind on this. I can't believe how much I've changed my mind on this. But I never expected LGBT solidarity to lead us all down the path of women's subjugation, once again.

OP posts:
AskBasil · 08/03/2015 09:46

Like lots of liberal and lefty men, Owen Jones is on our side until we say something he doesn't actually like. (Or even until we say something his new BFF's say he shouldn't like.) At which point, he's no longer on our side, he sides with people who are misogynist and anti-feminist and he doesn't even notice they are. Because he doesn't understand the issues and he hasn't done the reading and he's waded into this debate without getting to grips with it (because it's only about women so it doesn't need to be so carefully researched) and by the time he does, he won't want to back down because he's nailed his colours to the wrong mast but men are very bad at saying "I was wrong" and people are bad at changing their minds about things in which they have an emotional investment, which by that time he will have.

PuffinsAreFictitious · 08/03/2015 09:33

Who's side is that Aqui1a, oops, sorry Quaia1?

Original poster
ArcheryAnnie · 08/03/2015 08:56

Flirtinis, no worries, and my intention wasn't to shut you down. Lots of people would have writte what you did, as it's the version of revised history that is being very heavily promoted at the moment - including most recently by Owen Jones.

OP posts:
HermioneWeasley · 08/03/2015 08:42

Quaia, he's shutting down debate by calling anyone who disagrees with a deluded a niche world view promoted by certain transactivists a "TERF". This includes removing any discussion of biological issues(including abortion, healthcare, FGM, etc) from feminist discussion because it's trans exclusionary, saying that male bodied trans women should be allowed in women only space because it's transpohobic to say penises shouldn't be allowed in rape crisis centres or women's prisons, and that lesbians who don't see male bodied trans women as potential sexual partners are also transphobic.

Doesn't feel very "on our side" to me.

JeanneTheRabidFeminist · 08/03/2015 01:10

I'm not sure he is.

I think he has good intentions. He is someone who waded into a debate without understanding it, and perhaps without knowing quite how to express himself.

But he has said some pretty awful things.

Quaia1 · 08/03/2015 00:41

I don't understand all the hatred towards Owen Jones? He's.. on our side.

JeanneTheRabidFeminist · 07/03/2015 23:35

But, well, this is the thing, isn't it?

The reason men are in danger in a men's prison more (or differently) than women are in a women's prison, is patriarchy. It all comes back to that. A man like flirtin is in danger not because men are innately violent, but because patriarchy promotes gendered violence.

TomCruiseCreepsMeOut · 07/03/2015 23:26

I have never heard of Owen Jones until this thread. So I googled his name and all I got was some blank-faced sixth former.....then I read he is actually thirty??? WTF???

And people actually LISTEN to this fuckwit?

FuckOffGroundhog · 07/03/2015 17:08

Sometimes but there are more transwomen than transmen, and ranswomen were some of the forerunners in the LGBT movement. Also, I think (and this is personal opinion here) post hormones it's easier for a transman to pass so they pass and just stay stealth because it's easier that way.As far as prisons are concerned yes, it's something I have thought about. I don't feel I would belong in a women's prison and I wouldn't want women to feel threatened by my presence. The only option would be a male prison but segregated for safety. I suppose. i have yet to step the wrong side of the law though and have no intention of doing so, so from my personal point of view it is academic.

Thanks for answering flitrinis, I realise these conversations must be difficult for you.

FlirtinisAllRound · 07/03/2015 14:11

Sorry it was poor of me not to fact check beforehand.

Original poster
ArcheryAnnie · 07/03/2015 13:11

and transwomen were some of the forerunners in the LGBT movement

This isn't a criticism of you, personally - but I am seeing this more and more, and it is a political attempt to rewrite history to serve a current political direction, most often seen in the "Stonewall happened because of trans women".

First of all, it makes no sense to transfer current concepts of identity onto previous concepts of identity - it might seem neat but many people now think about gender identity in a completely different way than they did in the early days of the modern LGBT movements.

Secondly, I see a lot of rewriting of gay men at Stonewall as trans women, and that just isn't accurate. Some did come out as trans women later on, but a hell of a lot more didn't, and to rewrite the whole thing as a trans women's action serves to erase the identities of many of those who were there - I see this as deeply homophobic. It is also argued that the person who kicked the original riot off was a Black lesbian, Storme DeLarverie, and she is written out of most of these accounts altogether.

This is a bit of a diversion, I know, but I am seeing it more and more taken as truth, when history just doesn't work like that.

OP posts:
FlirtinisAllRound · 07/03/2015 12:40

Sometimes but there are more transwomen than transmen, and transwomen were some of the forerunners in the LGBT movement. Also, I think (and this is personal opinion here) post hormones it's easier for a transman to pass so they pass and just stay stealth because it's easier that way.
As far as prisons are concerned yes, it's something I have thought about. I don't feel I would belong in a women's prison and I wouldn't want women to feel threatened by my presence. The only option would be a male prison but segregated for safety. I suppose. i have yet to step the wrong side of the law though and have no intention of doing so, so from my personal point of view it is academic.

BuffyEpistemiwhatsit · 07/03/2015 08:05

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Cariad007 · 06/03/2015 22:06

Pusher, not pusher!

Cariad007 · 06/03/2015 22:05

*FuckOffGroundhog", you raise an interesting point. The trans men I've met have gotten really frustrated as they feel trans women are listened to far more and are pusher because they've been socialised as men.

Original poster
ArcheryAnnie · 06/03/2015 21:13

Personally I've no issue at all with transmen being in women's bogs, prisons etc. They're not likely to rape me.

In theory I feel the same way - not because I see trans men as women, but because I am aware that they have been socialised female, which brings an entirely different baggage of (lack of) entitlement and expectations. But the only two trans men I have ever known, I would not ever guess they were trans at all if I hadn't known them before transition, so if I'd met them in the wrong circs as strangers they would have set off a fear response in me.

I, too, Flirtini, would really appreciate any insight or opinions on this - though like FuckOff I am prepared for you to tell me to, ah, fuck off, if you don't want to answer!

OP posts:
FuckOffGroundhog · 06/03/2015 19:59

Hi Flirtini, if you don't mind me asking (and please tell me to fuck off if you do but I don't see many transmen in these debates so I'm curious to your opinions).

Do you think it's that female socialization means that transmen don't make their voices heard in the same way that transwomen do? Also what do you think about trans people in prisons? I know you say you wouldn't want to go in to a women's bathroom, but the thought of a transman going in to a male prison makes me feel physically sick. Like throwing them to the wolves. :(

Chunderella · 06/03/2015 19:51

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

JeanneDeMontbaston · 06/03/2015 18:39

One thing with toilets (before I stop beating a dead horse) is that women are, by and large, socialized not to challenge people, or get aggressive. Men aren't. Which is going to affect how easy it is to feel able to go into a bathroom where you don't know if you pass.

FlirtinisAllRound · 06/03/2015 18:21

Thanks Annie, I'm a transman so I do understand and have suffered female oppression, perhaps not as bad as others, but it's been there.
Someone mentioned up thread about it being easier for transmen in the toilets and I can see the point sort of but I want to go into the ladies about as much as I want to wear a dress and present as a woman which is not at all, but the gents is scary because I don't pass very well at the moment.
I just hold it in, it's easier.

fridgepants · 06/03/2015 17:54

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ at the user's request.

fridgepants · 06/03/2015 17:53

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ at the user's request.

Cariad007 · 06/03/2015 17:23

Yes, MRAs like to go on about men being raped too but who does the raping? Other men. Not women! But if you say this then they say things like "oh well, I suppose that makes it okay then?" Way to miss a point mate...

AbortionFairyGodmother · 06/03/2015 16:37

I'm waiting for schizophrenics and paranoids to start calling their therapists and loved ones "sanesplainers." If you question someone's worldview, no matter how harmful or contrary to evidence that worldview is, you're erasing their validity as a human being!