Men who parade how "feminist" they are but who can fuck right off...

I have had a couple of male colleagues come up to me discreetly in the past, and tell me that they had had pay rises or promotions rather unfairly when it was clear to them I was better qualified and more experienced and should have at least got the same. They have then proceeded to go out of their way to back me up in trying to obtain redress and make things fair again.

Ultimate in feminism, that. And I very much doubt they called themselves feminists. They just saw themselves as decent people doing the right thing.

Luckily for them I am now in the position of doing the hiring and one of them is likely to be needing a job soon ... and I like hiring good and decent people who are team players ....

If a feminist is concentrating on a different problem, why not spend the time working on the problem you prioritise instead of taking that time to complain I.e. Tweet at her?

My dd is 20, and in her 3rd year at university. She has had several crap experiences with men who use calling themselves feminists as a pick up line. It's very depressing.

If one of the first things a man tells you about himself is that he's allegedly a feminist, then distrust is advisable.

... actually, I would never trust such statements. The least a man can do is say something actually feminist instead of just informing us he considers himself a feminist.

Doing something feminist would of course be even better.

So are we not allowed to care about anything ther than abortion now?

I mean, I get how seriously women's human rights are compromised by the 8th amendment to the Irish constitution.

But I still have feelings about other things.

That said, I am very glad to have Graham and Helen Linehan on board campaigning to Repeal the 8th.

Hmm. Tbh the same goes for some feminists. No respect for the opinions of others if they disagree.

I''m really disappointed:(.

My dd is 20, and in her 3rd year at university. She has had several crap experiences with men who use calling themselves feminists as a pick up line. It's very depressing.

What I meant about messages ... it sends to his male fans the message that rape is okay.

... to his female fans, it sends the message that he is a rapist and/or just doesn't care how we feel.

I am sure male fans who have rapist tendencies want him to be one of them and will not think "Well, he said that, but I am sure he didn't really mean it".

I'm trying to hard to defend him here aren't I? It's not crime of the century but it is pretty grim that he's even thought to go there?

In the best case, he's a shameless liar.

But I am afraid that would be a little too optimistic.

This is often the excuse given when men say horrible things. In that thread on porn-watching men, someone said that of course men would claim to watch porn, visit strip clubs, go to prostitutes when talking to their buddies.
But of course they're lying and are totes faithful husbands!

I think it was C.S. Lewis who wrote something about cowardice wiping out all virtues / bravery being a virtue necessary in order to actually have other virtues. (At least under a dicatorship, a coward would, after all, do evil to stay safe.)
Honesty is similar. If you are a good person, but lie about it, then you cannot expect people to treat you as a good person.

I am not charitable enough to assume, when a person reveals something horrible about themselves, that they are lying.

Besides, if you are famous, you should watch what you say. That he views rape jokes as something acceptable to use for the sake of provocation, that he doesn't care what message that sends to his male fans ... that's still very bad.

(I totally get why you want to defend him. I do the same thing for my favourite male authors. It's a reflex ... and one of the reasons why I prioritize female artists now. I am fed up with having to find excuses why I still like someone's art despite the horrible things they said.)

'Fraid so:

metro.co.uk/2013/12/19/martin-freeman-shocks-fans-by-joking-about-date-raping-an-elf-4236498/

In fairness, I get the sense he's trying too hard to say something zany and funny (he's not a comedian, of course), realises he's said something crass and then sort of tries to wriggle out of it, making out he's being a bit ironic etc.

I'm trying to hard to defend him here aren't I? It's not crime of the century but it is pretty grim that he's even thought to go there?

"Like, that guy who plays Bilbo in The Hobbit? I thought "Hey, he's not that bad", and then it turns out he makes rape jokes that indicate that he has raped, or would rape if the opportunity presented itself."

Martin Freeman??????? Nooooooooo!

Hadn't read this thread before but have had a good snigger at the Owen Jones comments

My late DH never mentioned feminist theory. He hadn't read any feminist books. He just took his turn getting up in the night for our babies, took over the house when my business took off and told me I was a genius when I doubted myself. I come from a family in which all the men, my DD, my DBs and my SSIL do stuff that proves their belief rather than trying to prove how right on they are.

This, all day long. You see so many men coming on here and make total fucking tools of themselves ask 'what can I do?' And I think the biggest thing is - not be a dick, do your fair share, not make workplace decisions based on sex, call out blatant sexism when it's safe to do so etc. etc. That's the nub of the matter isn't it? Men as a class - including the basically decent majority - need to change their behaviour, mainly in lots of little ways, which taken in combination add up to really quite a lot

they are just jerks i just ignore such creatures

I only believe male feminists if they actually do stuff. My late DH never mentioned feminist theory. He hadn't read any feminist books. He just took his turn getting up in the night for our babies, took over the house when my business took off and told me I was a genius when I doubted myself. I come from a family in which all the men, my DD, my DBs and my SSIL do stuff that proves their belief rather than trying to prove how right on they are. I'd call Owen Jones a twat if that wasn't an insult to twats.

Urgh, what a twat. I assume he's never tweeted about anything other than life threatening issues?

To be honest, these days I avoid becoming a fan of a male artist in the first place, as there's so high risk of any given male actor, writer or singer turning out to be a sexist arsehole.

Like, that guy who plays Bilbo in The Hobbit? I thought "Hey, he's not that bad", and then it turns out he makes rape jokes that indicate that he has raped, or would rape if the opportunity presented itself.

And then you feel so conflicted about liking his work.

With female artists, there's no guarantee that they aren't horrible people in private, but at least they aren't so prone to proudly reveal themselves as arseholes on live television, so I have less of a risk to feel conflicted.

He seems to be all for gender stereotyping if it means that men can become ladies by putting on lady clothes though.

Ugh, it's just another form of whataboutery but this time, instead of directing women's attentions to problems affecting men it just pushes what you're allowed to focus on back and back.
You can't care about gender stereotyping until abortion rights are sorted but you can't care about abortion rights until women stop being beat to death by their partners. And really, why care about domestic violence in the UK when things are much worse for women in Saudi Arabia. But don't tell Saudi Arabia to treat women better because that's cultural imperialism.
Heaven forbid we could focus on more than one thing at once (pink brain is all about the multi-tasking after all)

He gets some things so right and other things so completely and utterly wrong. The majority the latter

Thanks PP - interesting to hear about and no need for the apologies - appreciate the effort you took to flesh it out. I've got to be honest, I'm really disappointed. I used to be a real lefty in my 'youth' but realized as I've got older that misogyny knows no limits! Still it sucks when someone you held in some esteem turns out to be similar to the very person he's lambasting.

The joke about Josef Fritzl was using Fritzl's dungeon as a punchline along the lines of a revenge fantasy on 'the bankers' where they dig their way out of prison only to get into Fritzl's cell below, if I recall correctly. It relies on a bit of shock/disgust value to work and a 'ha! ha! corrective rape' element. I may have forgotten the twist that saves this joke from being as dismal as it seems. However, it did come after some Savile/celeb related jokes, and before one aimed at Russell Brand about threesomes. He was (self-deprecatingly?) comparing his own imagined performance in a threesome with that of RB, which involved the international comedy action of shagging (basically thrusting at an imagined passive lump of meat) while holding a conversation with a mate about football. It's a sort of "I'm a man, me! and don't you forget it" gesture. Ironically, that a is exactly what the RB joke MS is riffing off is about. Anyway, sorry if that explanation is a bit rambling and incoherent (I blame the comedy I'm describing). I came out of the theatre ranting to my husband about how no wonder the SWP were in the state they were in if that's the comedy they were treated to - which is perhaps not the correct inference.

It's so disappointing when you think a man gets it and then find out he's just another misogynist.

PlonitbatPlonit what did he say in his show? Did other people pick up on him being sexist?

I think the way he's handled this on twitter is awful. Simply won't recognize anything and also laughed at the joke about abuse. He won't get my money again.