Does cognitive dissonance perpetuate misogyny, or just reflect it?

I'm sure that there are plenty of analyses of male violence in that sense, and certainly a lot of people argue that whole economic system ultimately relies on violence and the threat of violence to stay in place.

But yop mentioned examples like what if all the violent men lived in Norfolk. I think then unless there is something very specific about Norfolk, it is not the same thing. Men under capitalism (and various forms of proto capitalism) occupy a particular position which uses violence to enforce unfair relations with the reproductive class so that they are denied resources.

If we instead just view men as a group who happen to be violent because of some kind of historical set of stereotypes that we will gradually legislate and educate ourselves out of, we ignore the purpose that male violence serves.

That is kind of the basic difference between liberal and radical approaches, maybe. I am very tired!

A huge amount of our literature and culture seems to me to be designed to prompt men (and women) to think using cognitive dissonance. It prompts us into these thought patterns.

Could you maybe give a couple of examples of this? I'm struggling to understand what you mean.

Yes Buffy, but in disciplines like sociology class analysis means that thing that Marxists do. I think it might get confusing if we call any analysis of anything that can be classified a class analysis.

I assume when people on this board say they are talking about a women as a class, they mean it in some sense related to the Marxist sense. They're not just saying it would be interesting to group us all together for completely non political reasons, like seeing if we prefer cheddar to cheshire cheese, or lipstick to lipgloss.

Well, I think there is finding a correlation ... men who eat satsumas are more angry and explaining the cause.. satsumas reduce serotonin levels (I made that up, obviously).

For it to be class analysis, your cause would have to be explained in terms of economics and conflict between groups. Who benefits from these particular men being violent? Who suffers as a consequence? How does it promote capitalism?

So we might speculate that straight men are more violent than gay men, and there have been analyses written as to why this in, and how heterosexuality is useful for capitalism and so on, so that gay men occupy a specific class position.

I don't know what the name for that is, but it is a definitely a common form of analysis that we all agree is useful, and must have a common name.

I think class analysis refers to a specific idea from Marxism. It is the analysis of how groups are in conflict with each other because of their position within the economic system. So women are the reproductive class - they are expected to do essential reproductive work which is required for society to continue but has no economic value. This puts women as a class into conflict with other groups.

I think if you remove the particular economic and conflict elements of it, it is no longer a class analysis.

I'm actually not sure that any of it is class analysis! I think it might have another name that people who don't believe in class analysis call it. But whatever it is, I think we all agree it is necessary.

Dur, its only taken me 2 pages to get there

Can I try and clarify the class analysis point?

Is what Yop saying that if we agree that violence is exhibited far more frequently by men, then men as a class are violent.

BUT... yop is also saying we would also want to know if violence was more prevalent in particular types of men, or men that had been taught particular things, or men who had been exposed to certain situations. Because we would then be able to change the environment so less men become violent, leading to a drop in violence in the group.

So we might critique masculinity but in general, but also say some kinds are particularly dangerous. A bit like saying smoking is not good for you, but there are particular kinds of smoking that is worse.

Sorry, should have a ?

'. Is it, then, possible to get rid of (some of) your cognitive dissonance, as a man, and to accept that women are basically human and so on, and still to struggle with that literature because it is prompting this cycle of stressful thought?'

So enlightened men who are allies might 'fall off the wagon ' as it were by watching Total Recall (flippant)

I have understood your OP as written perfectly, Jeanne!

Fair point. It's a useful tool, but a blunt one.

Jeanne - if the amount of time spent by British women alone in dark alleyways was exactly equal to the amount of time spent by British women alone with their male friends, you would be correct.

But since British women spend much much less time alone in dark alleyways than alone with their male friends, the fact that fewer rapes occur in dark alleyways is not at all surprising. However, we can say nothing at all from this information about the probability of a rape occurring when alone in a dark alleyway versus alone with a male friend.