A question relating to the trans*/feminism debate

I guess to the extent that liberal feminists generally want women to be more 'manly' - earn more, have higher status jobs, employ nannies, wear trousers - and often reject more 'womanly' things like childcare, cooking etc.
My OH cheekily calls this 'Mulan feminism' (after the disney film where Mulan wants to be a man and go and join the army... remember that one?!)

Radfems want to get rid of the 'manly'/'womanly' division altogether, since it's inherently oppressive. In the radfem utopia, being a CEO would be no more masculine than being a SAHM, since the word 'masculine' would be meaningless. I suppose that would be a total deconstruction of the existing system .

Riveting, yes that's very true! I was definitely a fun feminist in my youth, so probably passed through lib on the way to my current hardliner stance ;-)!

The working definition of radfem to me is one wanting to work from the root ie deconstruct the existing system.

But I don't know if that's right any more.

"Wwhorephobia" as an insult pisses me off - the reason I am against the sex industry is because all the women working in prostitution I've known haven't been particularly keen on the sex industry either. (But they aren't doctoral students writing books, so what do they know....)

I like "pimpphobic" - thanks, whoever came up with that.

AKnickerful oh yeah I agree about working with the existing system for pragmatic reasons, and I'm all for reforming laws and so on.
I mean when it comes down to it, all feminists want the same thing - happiness and safety for women. It's just a matter of debating the methods.

Smartleatherbag I know what you mean... I find libfems very frustrating sometimes. In my experience, though, almost all radfems go through a liberal feminist phase on their way to a more radical variety. I certainly did! Hence why I prefer to think of liberal feminism as "half-arsed feminism" . Maybe your friend will come round with time?

Incidentally, I describe myself, if pushed, as libfem, because I believe it's best to target change within the existing system not rip the system up, but I don't think sex work is just work or that penises in certain spaces are a non-issue.

And I would never use SWERF or TERF.

Hi, I'm butting in a bit here, but I am radfem and my oldest friend is very much lib fem and I am avoiding her nowadays :-(. Have others similar experience? I actually resent her more than friends who don't identify as feminist at all.

Yy Rosie - I'm sure that libfems aren't the main users of SWERF and TERF. In the same way, I'm sure that feminists aren't the main perpetrators of assaults, insults, exclusions etc against trans people.

Also I should add - TERF and SWERF are also used by people who are most certainly not feminists and are just hostile to radical feminists

Hi traviata - yep, plenty of land mines! It is confusing.

Generally, feminists who are opposed to prostitution also tend to oppose some of the claims made by the trans community and their allies = Radical Feminists. Much of the feminist chat on Mn is in this camp.

In contrast, feminists who think sex work should be viewed as work and decriminalised also tend to support the idea that trans women are definitely women = Liberal Feminists. This view is more dominant in the mainstream media.

In other words, there's a reason SWERF and TERF rhyme - they're used (aggressively) by members of one group of people (libfems) to describe another (radfems).
This is very simplistic I'm afraid, but on the whole this binary division gives a fairly good picture of the current state of contemporary feminism.

This video is quite long, but it is an excellent intro to the differences between radical and liberal feminisms if you're interested -

Basically they're based on very different analyses of what gender is and therefore what feminists should do about sexism and oppression. There are lots of things that all feminists are united on (rape and domestic violence, for instance), but trans issues and prostitution are hugely divisive.

I obviously have my own opinions on all of this, but I'll save that for another post! (SPOILER ALERT, I'm 100% pimp phobic, thanks for that excellent term aKnickerful )

"Whore phobic" is also an incorrect representation of the position.

The majority of feminists who speak out against sex work focus more on the punter and whether or not he should be criminalised, or on anyone benefitting from the sex worker's receipts, than they do on the sex worker. But I guess "punterphobic" or "pimp phobic" don't sound so good.

It's because the slurs acronyms SWERF and TERF make such a pleasing sound as they leave the minds of idiots.

They might be slightly connected in that in some instances trans people have resorted to prostitution or porn in order to fund their surgeries. However, as we know that only a small % of trans people have any surgeries, it seems to be a bit of a red herring.

Hi traviata

I am not very well versed in it, but I don't think there's a direct connection.

Some people call various feminists who speak out against to sex work "whore phobic"

Some people call various feminists who speak out against penises in spaces such as DV refuges or rape counselling sessions "trans phobic"

The letter that's kicked off the latest objects to both of these positions. It should be possible to discuss these matters without being called "phobic"