Anti-Transgendered thread in Chat

Ok. As long as there is an acknowledgement that this is a small group. The acceptance of the blatant fact that this is a minority has been pointedly lacking in this discussion.

I would like to first state that I am not talking about rape crisis centres or domestic abuse shelters. In spaces where women may have extremely negative connotations of a penis, that boundary should be protected in my opinion.

But to exclude trans women from feminist spaces just because they have/have had a penis is unnecessary. As long as trans feminists accept (which the majority do) that discussions on menstruation, vaginal rape, etc. are for women who were born as women only, why exclude them totally? Why can they not have a voice when it comes to discussion on sexism, harrassment, the exclusion of women from positions of power, equal pay, etc?

And the focus on trans women's genitalia is just furthering the policing of women's bodies by others. Their genitalia should be their own business, not a matter for intrusive public questioning. Trans men are not subjected to the same humiliating scrutiny, which should surely further prove that this obsession with trans women's genitals stems from sexism and the objectification of women's bodies?

I don't think anyone here is saying that gender is binary. We are saying it is a social construct that harms women, men, and trans people alike. How have you not got that from the last twenty pages?

Cigars, I have absolutely no problem with the majority of trans women who are just trying to peacefully get on with their lives, and have had complex struggles that I will never have. No issue at all. Also no issue with transvestites. Live and let live.

I do have an issue with a vocal, aggressive and increasingly influential small group of trans activists who are trying to shut down discussion that includes aspects of women's biology because it excludes them, and to fight for the right of male bodied trans women to use women only space, particularly spaces which should be safe spaces needed by biological women because they are physically different and have had different experiences to male bodied trans women.

It isn't just putting on clothes though, is it? Otherwise drag queens (which I accept can be an extremely misogynistic culture) would be trans women.

By denying trans women the right to be women, you are denying a lot of people their very existence and identity, because your experience supposedly trumps others. Your view of the world is not the only one that matters and to effective at campaigning for genuine change, you have to accept that fact.

Gender is not binary. My non-binary DP is a living testament to that in my everyday life. You may wish for it not to exist but you cannot deny the fact that it currently does, and has an incredibly powerful impact on almost everyone's lives.

Indeed, they do make no sense. To deny the experience of half the world's population who are discriminated against, oppressed, assaulted, and often murdered because of their biology is delusional and offensive.

I can insist that there is no such thing as the Atlantic Ocean - it would certainly suit me for there not to be, but just insisting doesn't make it so. (Probably a bad analogy)

That's because they make no sense Catotanca.

It's actually the mainstream contention of many trans writers that biological sex is not binary and does not exist. It is also the mainstream contention that trans women have always been women, grew up as women and experienced girlhood. I cannot resolve any of these points into a coherent position personally.

The problem is that if no one can describe what feeling like a woman feels like then being a trans woman does just seem to be nothing more than adopting the external trappings that are associated with being female in our society eg. wearing clothing that is aimed at women.

I've already discussed all this upthread cigar.

The basic gist of it is, a woman is not a person in a dress. It's just not. We have a society where children are divided and treated differently from day one based on their genitals. If you deny that then you're just being totally obtuse.

There is a lot of focus on upbringing. Not everybody views their childhood as fundamental to their identity. I would view my formative years as my twenties. Why can't a trans woman have her formative years as a woman at that age too?

And what about those post-surgery trans women? What about intersex people?

Is man a meaningless term for those without penises?

Because if you can be a woman without having a vagina and without being raised as a woman then "woman" is a meaningless term.

They aren't men who put on a dress. I'm glad that you have a blinkered vision with regards to the issues in the world and can only see one single group of people's issues. Do you care about the plight of black women or severely impoverished women, or is yours a feminism that excludes all intersectionality?

I detest WERTs. I detest TERFs. I detest any feminism that puts their needs above another group of oppressed people.

Trans women are not doing it for the lols. They don't open themselves up to such horrific violence for fun. They aren't male infiltrators, male spies. They aren't doing it to be our saviours, telling us how to be women. They are women who were born with a penis and balls.

Yes, there are some who take a very questionable approach towards feminism and women, and I fundamentally disagree with that. I am not defending WERTs. But I am certainly not defending TERFs.

I would consider myself a radical feminist at times, but for me that includes ALL women - whether born with a vagina or not. We are all oppressed by the same group, so why not fight that group together?

I think I would object to being called a TERF the, just like I object to being called a CIS woman, because I don't actively seek to exclude anyone from anything for their stated gender, race, viewpoints etc. I only exclude people from my life if they behave badly towards me.

I personally would not be bothered about being on a ward with men or trans, being examined by a male or trans doctor etc, but I have never really been physically abused so that is easy for me to say. I don't think safe spaces for women that have is exclusionary really.

No, I do think you have a point. TERF is used as a threat, it threatens women's need to be liked and not to offend anyone.

Yet, at the same time WERTs feel no shame at issuing rape threats and death threats. But we're supposed to forgive them because they're such downtrodden victims.

Sorry I've not thought it through have I, there are actually some real consequences associated with terf like no-platforming and endless harassment

I mean that if people just say so fucking what yes I am a terf, does it lose its power? It only works if people are afraid of being labelled as a terf (obviously death threats are frightening whatever)

I'm not sure what you mean, Cow.

Not as a concept, as a putdown

Do we need to be saying that terf itself as a concept is not wearing any clothes? Is that possible?

The thing about it all is, I have no wish to harm anyone who wants to wear whatever clothes they like. If you're a person with a penis who wants to wear a dress, knock yourself out. I'm not stopping you.

But arrogantly stride across my life and history and shit on it and I won't be too happy, naturally.

On a slight tangent here, but it is relevant.

I have a particular horror at women blindly swallowing what men tell them and walking trustfully to their doom - it's happened to us so much throughout history and brought so much suffering.

Men look out for themselves. They don't build shelters for women or make any great effort to get women into the workplace - it's all women doing that.
Women are expected to solve all their own problems and any problems men happen to dictate they should be concerned about.

Including trans issues.

I am not the mummy of the world. I am looking out for me and my fellow women - people born with vaginas.

As soon as men start giving a shit about me, I'll give a shit about them. But they will not distract me with their whining.

I'm unperturbed by terf. Incidentally, Allison Woolbert, who runs the terf tracker website, is a convicted child rapist, so I'm not massively interested in her ideas about what is proper behaviour.

Cool

No, I used it because it's apt :) It will be part of my vernacular.

Oh is wert already a thing? I didn't know
Yes that's it, they'd despise me and the way I dress most of the time. As you say, it's seriously fucked up. It must be horrible to live with so much hate