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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

That study about men expecting women to physically move out the way...

128 replies

WorkingBling · 19/02/2015 16:17

... I thought it was an American thing. "In England, if nothing else, men have that naturally English chivalry thing going on" I thought.

Hahaha. I am 36 weeks pregnant. Bad back. Belly the size of a small whale. My ability to make quick direction changes is completely gone and frankly, even if I could turn sideways in an effort to make myself smaller, it would be a complete waste of time as clearly I'd actually double the space I take up.

And do you know what? I get bashed by a man at least twice a day on my way into and out of the City - today I had three bashes from grown men and one from a teenager where, even though the father was giving his three children a hard time for being a bit boisterous, he saw the teenager smack into me but said nothing about that to either one of us.

I've also had a few men staring me down as they approach, making it clear they expect me to move out of the way quickly. And when they do bash me, I don't even get that instinctive English apology where everyone says sorry.

The weirdest thing is that I bet some of these men would let me go first through a door or possibly give me a seat on the tube. But when walking on the pavement, I am expected to move. And move fast.

I can't believe I had never noticed it before.

OP posts:
cadno · 21/02/2015 12:33

Here's the Sunday Times article from above - for those unable to get past the paywall.

"IT IS the curse of busy cities and is now the latest battleground between the sexes: who has right of way on the pavement?

Beth Breslaw, 25, a trade union activist in New York, was tired of the habit of city residents who walk in a straight line without getting out of the way for other pedestrians. Convinced that it was mainly men who were guilty, she put her theory to the test by refusing to alter her route for anyone.

She spent most of the next two months colliding with dozens of men — and markedly fewer women.

“I can remember every single man who moved out of the way, because there were so few,” Breslaw told New York magazine, which has dubbed the practice “manslamming”.

As Breslaw saw it, “if they don’t make any indication that they’re cognizant of the fact that our bodies are impacting each other, if they don’t sway a little bit to the side or move their shoulder a little bit back”, then it counted as an instance of manslamming.

Breslaw’s experiment has gone viral and generated intense debate about whether pavement etiquette really does represent a difference in the way the sexes behave or if it is just old-fashioned rudeness.

The Sunday Times put it to the test by sending three women out in London, Bristol and Birmingham to discover whether manslamming is also prevalent in Britain.

In three busy areas of London — Liverpool Street station, Oxford Street and Westminster Bridge — a female reporter had “bumps” with 31 other pedestrians; 21 men and 10 women.

In Bristol, there were bumps with 28 men and 25 women while in Birmingham, six bumps were equally divided between the sexes: three men and three women.

Hardly damning evidence of a masculine conspiracy and many of the pedestrians did not see it as a gender issue.

Liz Rudd, 30, from the Cotswolds, who travels through Liverpool Street station, said: “I don’t think it’s just men. I find that women are becoming more focused and assertive, so we aren’t letting men get away with it. Women are definitely the worst when it comes to rushing to get a seat on the Tube.”

Anita Whettell, 53, a blood donor carer from Solihull, West Midlands, admitted that she had bumped into people herself, particularly while on the phone or listening to music.

But that did not stop her suggesting there was a gender difference: “I think that it’s mainly men who do it because they can’t do two things at the same time.”

Glen, 42, who was shopping in Oxford Street, blamed “bumping” on people gazing in shop windows or at their phones, and “looking at pretty girls in the street”.

Breslaw would have welcomed Ben Downs, 34, an IT worker, from Bedminster, Bristol, as proof of her assertion. “I quite often walk into women to prove a point, actually,” he said.

“Why should it be me that has to move? They are just as capable of stepping to the side. If they want equality, they can have it. Women are much worse than men when it comes to this.”

Laura Snook, 19, a law student, from Cardiff, said: “Old men are the worst and girls my own age — they just give a really bitchy look and carry on walking in a straight line.”

Kate Fox, a social anthropologist and author of Watching the English: The Hidden Rules of English Behaviour, rejects Breslaw’s assertion that manslamming is male sexism in action on the pavement.

“The conclusion that this is all about ‘male entitlement’ and ‘everyday patriarchy’ and so on simply does not follow,” she said.

“Yes, men probably do have a greater sense of entitlement to personal space, but this is not demonstrated by these ‘experiments’. Men could simply be less bothered about being bumped into.

“Breslaw seems to be particularly cross about the fact that the men she barged into [unlike the women] didn’t get cross — they just seemed oblivious.

“She chooses to interpret this as ‘male entitlement’ and the invisibility of women — one could equally interpret it as the men politely refraining from making a fuss about a little bump.”

In fact, said Fox, most of the time “we are all [male and female] remarkably adept at avoiding collisions in crowded public places”.

Perhaps it is not a gender issue. Maybe it is age. Mike Tomkins, 68, a retired financial analyst from Wall Heath, Birmingham, said: “I don’t think there’s a difference between men and women.

“It’s younger people who do it most when they are engrossed in technology as they go about their daily lives.”

BuffytheThunderLizard · 21/02/2015 12:22

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BuffytheThunderLizard · 21/02/2015 12:18

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Ilikemashpotatoe · 21/02/2015 12:03

Wait until you have a pushchair. Then you'll realise it's not just men that expect you to move. I was struggling to get into the doctors before as the doors were so heavy and was just watched by men and women. I'm always aware of my surroundings and try to help other people, especially with children. People often watch while you struggle to open doors, get baby in trolley without it rolling away. Some people are just arseholes!

larrygrylls · 21/02/2015 11:58

Read it in paper edition. Will try to find link but may be behind paywall.

smle · 21/02/2015 11:48

I'm really new to this sight but I'm already starting find that some women seem to be bitter and twisted to point where they've become massively sexist; the very think they claim to be fighting against.

It makes me so sad as I was hoping to find a new avenue for my feminist thoughts and a place where I could learn more and grow as a feminist. But reading this thread, and going back over many, many previous ones, I realise I'm not like and I don't intend to hang around long enough to become like you.

I won't post here again; what's the point?

ManOfSpiel · 21/02/2015 11:46

Did anyone actually link to this study?

TondelayoSchwarzkopf · 21/02/2015 11:38

It is a well known psychological phenomenon known as confirmation bias.

Yeah, other examples include reading a 'study' in a newspaper that confirms your prejudices and dismissing all other evidence.

smle · 21/02/2015 11:31

Fugg
What about all the experiences of women who say it isn't happening? Do they count for jack shit too?

larrygrylls · 21/02/2015 11:25

It was women's experiences that made someone do a study. But if the study failed to confirm the experiences, it at least warrants more study. If repeated studies fail to confirm subjective experience, then I am afraid that you have to consider the experience to have been flawed, probably due to bias.

ManOfSpiel · 21/02/2015 11:24

No I don't think that is what Larry is saying but in the same vein, people are happy to dismiss other experiences where women do exactly what men are being accused of.

So do male experiences of shitty women count for jack shit too?

Fugghetaboutit · 21/02/2015 11:05

So all our experiences mean jack shit because of some study. Ok mate.

larrygrylls · 21/02/2015 10:53

One actual study is a lot better than your subjective experiences where you are bringing your biases to bear. It is a well known psychological phenomenon known as confirmation bias.

A man might have read the article but it was written by a woman and all the researchers were female. Of course if you can point to research (as opposed to subjective opinions) I am happy to be corrected.

TondelayoSchwarzkopf · 21/02/2015 10:44

Of course it's imaginary. There was an article in the Times a man read once. That comprehensive study of 6 women. Or 6 cities. Or something.

I mean, that's the final nail in the coffin, that is.

WorkingBling · 21/02/2015 10:24

Except Larry, it's not imaginary. I walk the streets of London all the time and do not usually bump into people. Suddenly I am constantly being bumped into. That suggests that my inability to manoeuvre is the main problem. Which suggests that usually I get out of others' way rather than other people getting out of mine.

Acknowledging male privilege and ingrained sense that they have the right to the space doesn't mean that all women are perfectly polite or that every man is the same. It's an overall thing.

Similarly, while now and again I sit next to a woman on a train taking up more than her fair share of space, without a doubt it is usually men who sit with legs apart of who make no effort to constrict themselves. Doesn't mean they are sexist, nor does it mean all men are like this, but the phenomenen demonstrates that as a rule, men have more instinctive belief in the right to space.

OP posts:
larrygrylls · 21/02/2015 10:08

Still discussing an imaginary phenomenon ....

Preciousbane · 21/02/2015 09:43

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Firedemon · 21/02/2015 09:41

I lived in London for years but never noticed this. I always walk assertively and confidently so perhaps that's why? I'm not saying that to insinuate those of you this had happened to are walking along like timid mice, just thought it was relevant. Perhaps I was one of those dicks who barged into people. Hope not! I always moved for anyone who needed me to though.

TondelayoSchwarzkopf · 21/02/2015 09:35

Agree with you Bertie Botts. No-one is saying 'all men deliberately intimidate women on the street' (although plenty do...however) - it's about the millions of messages that they get that they are entitled to that space.

Here's one example, DH taught DS aged 3 to pee in side streets, if he needed to go. I can't imagine ever teaching a daughter that it's OK for her to pee in public. That message - that your comfort and convenience - comes above hygiene and courtesy to others is pretty powerful.

BertieBotts · 21/02/2015 09:28

Obviously you can't do an experiment like this, but if a boy was brought up in a totally female environment, only ever witnessed women going about their daily business and didn't meet a man until he was grown up, I expect he would develop what we would think of as quite feminine mannerisms.

DS has developed a lot of DH's mannerisms, which we often think of as genetic, but he is not his biological child. We learn a lot from copying what we see from others, even unconsciously - I can't copy an eyebrow movement deliberately if I try, so how do we pick these things up? I find it really fascinating.

BertieBotts · 21/02/2015 09:26

I don't think it has "meaning". Or that it's anything particularly important or worth challenging (Although Buffy's realisation about older people or people with limited mobility is true, and worth noticing) but it's interesting - don't you think? It shows how deeply we internalise sex differences. When we are very small we use these categories, not other categories, to emulate and learn how we are supposed to behave, not as humans, but as a person of our own sex and ethnicity.

BertieBotts · 21/02/2015 09:20

I definitely agree it's not consciously sexist - it's not like they are thinking "I am an important male person, everyone inferior must move"

But, there is a general and totally unconscious expectation for men that they have the right to take up space, whereas there's an unconscious understanding for women that we have to get out of the way and unless we specifically go out of our way to get in people's way, we don't notice it. Just like OP didn't notice until she was suddenly less able. It doesn't just happen with walking, but in lots of situations. If you people watch and make a tally, men are more likely to be confident that the space around them is "theirs" whereas women are much more likely to make subtle movements out of the way.

It is a tiny tiny thing and not a conscious one at all, it comes from observing others in our society when we are young and we don't even realise that we are doing it. It's like the jarring thing when you visit a country where they drive on the opposite side of the road and when you try to pass somebody on a narrow path you automatically step to the left but they automatically step to the right. Nobody ever told you to step to the left, but that is what you do. It's not even noticeable until it doesn't work.

Did you see the article about the woman who decided to sit legs-apart on the tube for a set period of time? At first she felt really uncomfortable and rude and as time went on she didn't even notice when she was inconveniencing people.

ManOfSpiel · 21/02/2015 09:09

AICM

Did you not know that us men are totally incapable of multi tasking? I get told this by women all the time, either by those I know or random women in shops etc.

VenusRising is quite correct. If I'm chewing gum whilst walking I have a far higher chance of walking into all sorts of things, women, lampposts, rubbish bins...... In fact, that proves categorically that this isn't a sexist phenomena at all [epiphany] Wink

AICM · 21/02/2015 08:50

Venus Rising said : “I've noticed that men don't get out of the way, but I don't think it's personal, I think they are mono tasking on walking and don't seem to notice anything else. Perhaps they are chewing gum at the same time, which probably completely overloads their circuits. Bless.”

Is that not the most sexist comment made on this thread so far?

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