Cisgender Lesbians & Trans Women

Yes, I believe there are female transvestites but society doesn't tend to get its knickers in a twist about them as it's "ok" for women to want to look like men (ripe for a good old mocking, but not seen as so transgressive and threatening to the status quo).

Butch lesbians, for example, might be considered transvestite in that they are wearing what might be considered men's clothing.

Having said that, I'm sitting here wearing men's clothing (boots, jeans, checked shirt) and I wouldn't consider myself a transvestite, just dressed in comfy, low effort clothing. Does there need to be a sexual fetish element to it? I don't know.

My DH was wearing a skirt when we got married and he looked hot.

Transwomen don't hassle men for sex for the same reason women don't - they are afraid men will kill them.

Probably pointless point, but I had to tell my English class the difference between Transsexual and Transvestite today, and I said that a transvestite is a person who dresses as the opposite gender and a transsexual is a person who has or wants to change gender. But then I wondered do you get female transvestites? Do women who dress as men as a thing exist? Do they have false beards, shoulder padding etc like male transvestites wear padded bras? Sorry if this is an insensitive question, it's just when I was explaining it I was careful to use the word "person" and then I suddenly wondered well, wait...

I think this point (as made by QueenStromba) is a very telling one:

I've never heard of any transwomen trying to bully men into having sex with them by claiming that they are bigoted for not being attracted to them. Strange that.

Nobody would dream of an accusation of bigotry to pressure a man into having sex with someone he's not attracted to. But when it's a woman, oh yes, women are fair game. Tossing that at the transactivists might shut some of them up for a little while.

(follow up)
Those figures are a bit old, there may be better ones out there!

Bair - there's about a 6:1 ratio between trans women and trans men, in terms of who applies for a gender recognition certificate (i.e. having your birth certificate etc. changed) - www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/218506/grp-statistics-july-sept-11.pdf

Someone said upthread that there was no mention in the article of male violence. The author is actually in the comments saying she finds it silly (or something like that) that women feel safer in women only spaces because women can be violent towards women. It is the theatre of the absurd.

On the point of transmen, I think on a superficial level they pass better than many transwomen so they keep their heads down and get on with life. A huge elephant in the room is that many "lesbian" transwomen don't pass at all and have had no surgery and if they did, there would not be so much of an issue. The reality is that lesbians are being presented with people who clearly look like men in dresses and being told it is transphobic to reject them as sexual partners. I am no lesbian, but if I was, I think I could do better than my DH in a dress. That makes me a horrible bigot, apparently.

Yes, sexual attraction is a strange and complex thing. I find short men attractive, but I still wouldn't sleep with Tom Cruise.

Does anyone have reliable source/figures for FTM compared to MTF? Seems FTM are a very quiet group of people.

That quite from the trans woman about how her penis is different to a man's penis is...wow. I cannot understand the sense of entitlement there. I get that it's really hard for trans people to find sexual partners, and I have sympathy. But sex organs are sex organs. I recently met a trans man who told our mutual friend he fancied me. I thought about it for a second, and realised I could never have sexual contact with another vagina, regardless of who it was attached to. Actually I didn't find him attractive because he looks quite female in presentation. Oddly enough I have found butch lesbians attractive before (notwithstanding caveat about vaginas) so that's a look that can attract me but on him, because he identifies as a man, it was off putting.

I think the point to that ramble was that gender presentation, sexual organs and attraction are complicated, and we have the right to be inconsistent!

Surely when it comes to adult personal relationships and you are about to enter into a sexual relationship with that person then it's about a negotiation of a relationship between two individuals?

Why does it have to 'mean' something to wider society? Surely using identity politics to 'police' relationships is wrong? It's an intrusion.

So a transgender person is uncomfortable with their body being masculine. Wants a relationship with a lesbian, unhappy that the lesbian is uncomfortable with their body, therefore TERF?

Just realised that my last post implies that DH may be trans gender

He isn't....

if

I agree, I think if DH transitioned fully although I would be happy to stay married I wouldn't want to have sex with her, but the assumption has definitely been made in this case that they are still having a sexual relationship...whether they are or not

super

It's supposed to be really expensive as well isn't it

Yes it makes perfect sense rosie.

To make a parallel for a minute - although it's not really the same, but it's similar.

If a person of either gender is not usually attracted to people of a certain ethnic group, does that make them racist? Of course it doesn't. I mean, yes, the lack of attraction may be caused by racism. And then it would be a problem - the racism. Not the lack of attraction. But the fact that somebody has a sexual preference for people of the same ethnicity as themselves does not make them racist. And a person of another ethnic origin does not have the right to insist that they "just consider" sleeping with them, even if the person is a racist.

Wondering now - I assume there must be some homophobic straight people who are turned off or even disgusted at the idea of sleeping with a bisexual person. Is the LGBT movement also talking about/concerned about this?

Ah ok. Thanks for clearing up. But yy only google if you're the sort of person who voluntarily watches spots being popped etc.

Afaik, most transwomen don't have what is coyly termed 'bottom surgery'.
Which is understandable given the risks and the results.

Well presumably the transwoman's wife was straight before his transition? She would probably have been labelled as transphobic (by transactivists) and abusive if she had decided not to continue their relationship following her husband's transition. Even though it is completely her choice who she wants to have a relationship with, or at least it should be.

super

Nope, both of them didn't understand why a lesbian might not want to have sex with a trans woman

super

That what I though re still not being quite the same after the operation, but then as you say I'm much to afraid to google

When I said that some trans women want to keep their penis she did say "well I don't understand that!"

After reading your second comment, rufus, I may have got the wrong end of the stick about which of your in-laws was confused about lesbians. Sorry, if so.

Thank you riveting that makes perfect sense

Surely your MIL understands how women's genitals work though, Rufus? Like, it's not just a big cavern to shove things into in order to induce when-harry-met-sally-style noises. All the operations don't give a result quite the same as a woman's genitalia. You could google but it's about as nsfw as googling dragon butter.

But you don't seem dense.

It's all a bit ridiculous and only really gets discussed because men on twitter use it to tell lesbians off for not being inclusive enough.