Cisgender Lesbians & Trans Women

I believe that the GRA was brought in quietly i.e. it was a done deal before most people had heard of it. I also doubt that anyone at the time realised that ten years down the line we'd have female penises.

I said at work that something was sex not gender and baffled them, then explained that sex = male / female and gender = masculine / feminine and they looked at me like I was quite mad

I know. People think they are inter changeable. Every thread on here that mentions gender scans or guessing the gender leads me to post 'you mean sex' which tends to make people think I'm a weirdo.

Incidentally in the mainstream gender is now used more than sex (to mean sex) from what I can see so this conversation when it reaches the more mainstream is going to be incredibly difficult.

Majority of bogstandard people understand gender to mean what sex used to mean.

Nodding @ ApocalypseThen Thu 19-Feb-15 18:42:14 and CouncilOfLadies Thu 19-Feb-15 18:07:16 & loads of other people.

While I know that this is a small number of shouty people, they are gaining traction aren't they. The logical end-points of what is being argued are really concerning.

It's either about gender or it's about sex. If it's about throwing off the shackles of gender - determinism, welcome aboard. Fight the good fight and all that. But when it comes to sex, well I'm afraid you're dealt the hand you've got. The GRA confused the issue (and I have to ask where were all the "we fought for women's rights before you were even born" lot when this became law?) and allowed for a change in sex, not gender. Gender expression didnt need a change in the law. Official documents denoting sex did.

Being a woman is not a feeling. Not feeling like a man is not being a woman. And vice versa. What arrogance to think that it is otherwise.

That's fair

Let me be really clear, I'm not saying being trans is a mental illness. I'm questioning the very small number is transactivists quoted here (who I have not personally experienced) who are saying that talking about issues linked to women's biology is excluding, and that lesbians are trans phobic for not wanting to have sex with male bodied trans women. And threatening violence to those who disagree. That behaviour is so far outside of normal and so delusional that i would consider some form of mental illness. And I don't normally say that about people who are just being twats.

Also I feel I should add I'm neither trans nor a woman, so take everything I say with a pinch of salt I'm merely trying to apply common sense and empathy as best I can here.

I'm not sure I got this point across properly: if medical/counselling services ensured that one of the most crucial issues - cold, hard biological realities were accepted, integrated and moved beyond. We might not be having this problem right now.

Saying mental illness is probably a bit much, as lest we forget homosexuality was defined as mental illness up until very recently. The emotional issues and ramification this experience tosses up are huge however, and it is to that I am referring.

It takes navel gazing to a whole new level.

This belief we're coming up against here. The general attitude for people with gender dysphoria, by the medical profession either general practice or psychology/psychiatry is patient led. I.E. the individual is encouraged to explore and work through the experience as it relates to them, and then to seek out treatments and or approaches that help them self actualise.

This in and of itself is great, but then we get some people whose internal reality is such that they do trully believe they are whichever gender, which again in and of itself is find and needs no correction. However having been through a lot of oftentimes painful self realisation there is the drive by some to make external reality match their internal one.

That's where we get this, and I am not sure I can say this politely; desire to minimise any and all elements of womanhood that relate to the parts a trans person will never have. Wombs, periods, menopause etc. Which leads me to believe the way we assist and help trans people work through the issues is very short-sighted and lacking, as its my belief that possibly a fundemental aspect of what they are railing against is basic biology that cannot be changed. However society can be changed so there is a drive to change what can be changed and ignore/minimise what they cannot.

Lots of people will turn to science, and to an extent this pertains to some feminists as well. However the brain is the most complex thing in the know universe, and our understanding of it is rudimentary to say the least. So qualified judgements on male/female brains is beyond our means currently, I've seen references that some transactivists point too, but the sample sizes are too small to make any real meaningful statement beyond more research is needed, but it is clung to like a life raft and now we end up with the bizarre feminine penis and masculine vagina. Which I agree is nonsensical.

I am utterly boggled by this whole debate.

Surely this must be a vanishingly small (but evidently very vocal) number of transactivists. Who are actually delusional/mentally ill?

Actually Council I recently did see on a Facebook a request to recognise the masculinity of a transman's vagina.

I was

And to think that the situation we have now only came about because the politicians deemed society not accepting of same sex marriage at the time of the GRA. That it all passed me by and that I was not involved in feminist activism at the time because I was in the throes of an abusive relationship never fails to raise the wryest of wry smiles.

I wish everything about this battle (and it feels like it is) was out in the open and in the mainstream. Feminine penises, my arse.

No Flora not since it came up.

I've only read to the end of page 2 so far. But has someone/can someone rebut Owen Jones if they haven't? Too furious to do it.

Umm, no it isn't. That's pretty much why I'm a lesbian

Interesting. I was thinking about this earlier on when I was supposed to be doing some work or other. It seems to me that part of the issue is that women aren't really supposed to have an innate sexuality. Women's sexuality isn't supposed to be based on women feeling desire or stimulation, and certainly not for just physical reasons.

I can see that having been brought up to think that women go for personality and pleasing people, hearing that you don't want sex with someone because they have a body type you don't find attractive is bound to be confusing and insulting.

It's just another example of binding women.

dervel did they continue to insist you are a transphobe and bigot after that conversation?

Accusing people of transphobia for not wanting to fuck a set of genitals they are not attracted to is dickishness in the highest degree.

I have a trans friend who has accused me (a man) of transphobia for not entertaining the idea of sleeping with trans women. So it does happen, my response was to say how fucking dare they accused me of that as I have listened to him/her (there is a lot of switching back and forth in their case) for literally hours upon hours on end with all the emotional fuckuppery this leaves them dealing with. Gently saying I'll support them whatever their choice ultimately is, and they are still a friend no matter.

As a gay woman I have been subjected to the viewpoint that I must be transphobic not to want to sleep with a transwoman. It's simple - I am attracted to biological women, with biological breasts, vaginas, etc. Transwomen seeking lesbians will then try to counter with the argument that attraction is so much more than body parts or genitalia. Umm, no it isn't. That's pretty much why I'm a lesbian.

When I ask why transwomen don't just date other transwomen - you know, seeing as they're all women - I get a lot of guff about triggers or not wanting to be reminded about their male selves. Yet I am supposed to put aside my instinctive revulsion and sleep with transwomen to validate them as women and as lesbians. That will never happen.

For all the talk of "feminine" penises, I have yet to hear a single gay transman claim that they have a "masculine vagina" or try to coerce gay men into sleeping with them. Because they know it would be futile, and because men are not obligated to soothe their feelings. Yet we women, and lesbians, are seen as easy targets by the militant transactivists - easier to bully and easier to guilt-trip because we are women.

Transwomen do not get to redefine the parameters of being a woman.

Sorry Flora, you have already made that point!

Nor do straight men appear to be under scrutiny for not wanting to sleep with any random transwoman who might fancy it. Which should also be called out as transphobia too, by their logic?

Ah screw it if transactivists require such a dramatic re-definition of woman in order to include trans individuals, surely that in itself shoots their whole position in the foot? As they are not currently women as the term has been traditionally understood.

I am perfectly happy to call someone she/her, support their right to go about their lawful business free from fear of violence, hunger and to practise their own religion and beliefs, BUT the moment someone's beliefs require us to reorder the whole of society at the expense of other people's freedoms they can feck the hell off.

I feel much the same about groups wanting to implement sharia law in the UK, I've got no beef with practicising Muslims, but the moment the rest of us have to curtail our lives in accordance to other people's beliefs I'm afraid I've reached the end of my goodwill and tolerance.

Surely this is much the same here? Being tolerant is one thing, but tolerance only goes so far until one starts becoming a doormat. Trans people's self perception and beliefs ARE important, but then again so are women's. I don't get why one should trump the other.

Finally I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess this horrendous violence and murder perpetrated against trans people is committed by men. Bring up the violence by all means, but mentioning it in the same breath as lesbians is kind of like Palestine bringing up Military strikes against them, but not mentioning Israel at all, but instead going off on one at Outer Mongolia. I mean how on earth does that work?