Cisgender Lesbians & Trans Women

Oneflew - good point. The suicide rate for women who have had breast augmentation is also significantly higher than average (an increase of about 27% - feministcurrent.com/8660/podcast-are-breast-implants-for-you/)

I suspect it's for the same reason - you think the surgery will solve all of your problems and then you're devastated when it doesn't.

I also wonder whether transition attracts very unhappy people who feel deeply uncomfortable in their own skins, and the 'woman trapped in a man's body' seems to offer hope - oh that's why I'm so miserable, transition it is! And this is becoming more and more common as trans issues are given more media attention etc.

I feel very sympathetic towards people who are so troubled... but I'm just not prepared to cede ground on women's rights. No penises in girls' changing rooms. End of.

There was a recent debate about this at the university where I work.

The teams gender community made some compelling arguments about prejudice etc but the very best response came from a very butch lesbian in her seventies.

She said she had been told all her life that she was 'supposed' to have sex with straight men. She had fought it tooth and nail and she fecking well wasn't going to be told by any group who she should damn well fancy!

She said in her life shed wanted to have sec with only a few people and they were all lesbians. Not men of any sexuality, not straight women, not trans men or women. Lesbians .

And frankly I think that is her prerogative!

Transactivists don't like it talked about. Women would be a lot less inclined to think that transwomen in their safe spaces are fine if they realised that the vast majority are "lesbians" with penises.

Bottom surgery is very difficult and can lead to loss of orgasmic function, not to mention can be unsuccessful. I guess most trans women would rather have a functioning orgasmic set of genitals than risk a failed attempt to build a vagina that is neither use nor ornament. And likewise trans men and penises. Can't blame them for that but it does raise questions.

I was just about to post a link to this, which suggests similar figures www.wsj.com/articles/paul-mchugh-transgender-surgery-isnt-the-solution-1402615120. It's a much higher % than I thought.

From The Washington Post:

"Fred Ettner, a physician in Evanston, Ill., who works with people going through transition, estimated that only about 25 percent to 30 percent of transgender people have any kind of surgery."

A large proportion of surgeries would be "top surgery" (mastectomies or breast implants) and facial feminizing surgery so I think the 80% would be an underestimate of the proportion that don't have "bottom surgery".

But trans women have been socialised the same way as anyone else, so to say to them, "you do realise the way you feel about your body is just because patriarchy, now off you go and think about it and maybe read Cordelia Fine" seems awfully unhelpful to someone who is in genuine distress

But this is similar to other types of body dysmorphia - we don't know what exactly causes it but we know that it is heavily influenced by socialisation and anxiety. It seems to boil down to the thought process "I'm not happy internally but if I can control my external image and how people react to that image then I will be happy."

If a person is anorexic we don't try to make them feel better by allowing them to starve themselves to death - we help them to come to terms with their internal pains and see that controlling their body is not the source of happiness and also won't give them that magic bullet of everyone responding the way they want.

I think the high suicide and depression rate amongst post-op transsexuals is partially caused by the belief that "once I have surgery I will be better and people will talk to me the way I've always hoped" and then it doesn't happen. Because we've treated the symptom not the cause and changing someone's genitals doesn't get rid of the feeling that you don't fit.

I'm sorry if that offends people but the transactivist rage against people not treating them as they expect to be treated really reminds me of my rage against people who dared to suggest I didn't need to go on another diet, that maybe I should eat something - because I wanted the solution to be "easy" and just require losing another few pounds.

Thanks for all the helpful replies to my somewhat garbled post! I totally agree that the male/female brain idea is outdated and wrong, and that ideally one would be able to express whatever aspects of one's personality and sexuality one chose through dress etc. But trans women have been socialised the same way as anyone else, so to say to them, "you do realise the way you feel about your body is just because patriarchy, now off you go and think about it and maybe read Cordelia Fine" seems awfully unhelpful to someone who is in genuine distress.

But I also completely agree that people with penises who want to have sex with women ought not to have access to women's spaces - that's just bonkers. But then you end up saying, "we won't believe you about this being a woman thing until you have your penis cut off", which is also a bit problematic.

Is the rate really as high as 80%??

pastthemission that's a fab post

This is stating the obvious, but part of the "I feel like a woman" aspect seems to be (and I appreciate that it is not the whole thing but it must be a strong part of it when there is so much talk of "passing") is saying "I want people to respond to me as a woman, rather than as a man". So it's very important how others see you. Which of course is what many feminists are trying to work against and the thing that many women find infuriating, distressing and sometimes dangerous - the way that people behave towards someone they have identified as a woman. I don't really feel like a woman as such, but I know that the way people respond to me and treat me and make assumptions about my likes/dislikes/skills/behaviour/sexual preferences/ability to consent relate to the fact that they have identified me as a woman. Some of those assumptions work for me, but many don't, and I imagine that many of those assumptions that work for me would not work for many other women, and vice versa

Italics fail....I hope that post is vaguely comprehensible!

Oops, pressed send too soon! -But claiming that I want to be/I feel like is the same as I really am already, and no-one may so much as even disagree with me' - that's rather different. Though if course it only becomes an issue when it comes into conflict with others' also dearly-felt beliefs about their^ right to self-definition.

I think a lot of it is rooted in the unwillingness to acknowledge the basic truth that none of us have access to what it 'feels' like to be someone else. 'I am really female/male inside the wrong body' (which was always understood as a metaphor, but now seems to have become literalised) - what that really means is 'I have created a fantasy of what being female/male would be like, and I want to become/live/act out that fantasy'. But that is quite literally true, right? If you are one sex, unless you have invented a magical telepathic/empathic device that enables you to get inside others' heads, then any conception of what is is like to possess someone else's lived experience is a form of fantasy. I don't get to know what it would be to be black, no matter how many times I read Toni Morrison or watch the Cosby Show: I might claim I 'feel like I am really black', but that feeling is only ever based on an act of imaginative identification. No matter how much I want that not to be the case. There isn't really any way around that: I don't get to claim that no-one else in history can visit inside others' heads but somehow I can.

The denial that wanting to be the other sex and 'feeling like' the other sex is a form of imaginative identification (however much is is wanted or dearly felt) ends up in the loopy ideas about male and female brains - which clearly don't make sense, since brains aren't sexed in and of themselves, of course they are already sexed, but only by virtue of being part of the sexed body that they are already in! It's a bizarre form of dualism to have this odd concept that the brain floats freely within the body somehow without being part of it.

Why not just say 'I want to be a woman (or man), because my image of that would be like fits much more with my self-identity. I would like to be accepted in society as a woman'? Great! Everyone can get behind this. I would like everyone to feel happy with themselves, trans, male, female, gender queer, agender - everyone.

And I'm not sure that if "being who you truly are" means being a woman rather than a man that surgery and medical intervention are avoidable.

I suppose Flora that I find it very difficult to reconcile how a transwoman who feels she is a woman (whatever that might mean to her) can have "peace in her own skin" with the ultimate identifier of being a man hanging between her legs.

I don't think it is either. Also I have seen figures (from transactivists) that 80% of transwomen do not have genital surgery. They may take hormones, have breast implants and/or facial feminization surgery.

The other thing that is sad about all this is that feminism is trying to resist the notion that we should cut our healthy bodies to fit a desired image and we should find peace in our own skin. But when it comes to trans, surgery and a lifetime of medical dependence is considered desirable to be "who you truly are". It makes no sense.

As I understand it, gender reassignment surgery has massively positive outcomes for patients. Their mental health improves hugely, they're generally really positive about how they feel about their lives and bodies post-surgery, and so on.

I don't think that is the case, actually.

Well, quite. I've always found that quite baffling about the term "cis". "Cis" means "not trans" because transwomen/transmen don't wish to be called that, they wish to be called women/men. So call yourselves women/men then If that is what you are, why not?

I can then see the use of a word to mean not-trans when specifically comparing against trans, but then there's no need to use it so constantly really, is there? So it shouldn't be an issue?

"Ah screw it if transactivists require such a dramatic re-definition of woman in order to include trans individuals, surely that in itself shoots their whole position in the foot? As they are not currently women as the term has been traditionally understood."

Yup.

No I am with you in that corner, Amethyst!

Can I just ask... I'm assuming there are people on this thread with far better and deeper understanding of all these issues than I have...

I've read any number of threads on here about this issue and any number of links about it, and I still can't get my head around it all.

As I understand it, gender reassignment surgery has massively positive outcomes for patients. Their mental health improves hugely, they're generally really positive about how they feel about their lives and bodies post-surgery, and so on. Of course the majority of people who undergo surgery are M to F, and I haven't seen any data about whether they identify as straight or lesbian.

But when this debate comes up, as it does over and over, is it not a tiny minority of people we're talking about, who identify as female and lesbian but don't seek to have gender reassignment surgery? How has it happened that they've come to dominate the conversation so? And mustn't it be massively upsetting for all the happy post-op transexuals who are just getting on with their lives and relationships?

Or is there a huge proportion of the trans community who haven't had surgery and don't intend to, and want to be women with penises?

There's so much knowledge on here and I know I'm coming across as terribly thick and uninformed, but I just can't fathom it.

"Sex is biology, I get that part. But gender is, what? Nothing? Does it exist? You can't say it's masculine and feminine. Masculine and feminine are a cultural construct. "

Yes, gender is the word used to describe the social constructs around expected male behavior, preferences etc and female ones. Masculine and feminine.

It is incorrect to use gender to mean male / female BUT words evolve and gender now means to most people what sex used to mean. And yes I think it was because gender was more "polite" than sex.

Many application forms for things now ask for gender rather than sex. I always want to write "none" or "don't know" or even "male" which according to my interests it is

I do not get the rise in supposed gender obscurity (queer theory) and the concurrent growth in transwomen activism. It seems arse about tit. Why on earth has this movement gone towards obscuring the reality of born women? Why did it not go to obliterating gender, which is what Feminism is all about? Or so it seems to me? Let's all live how we want, casting aside old fashioned notions of what we should be?

Honestly I can't really get my head around how sex is different from gender. Sex is biology, I get that part. But gender is, what? Nothing? Does it exist? You can't say it's masculine and feminine. Masculine and feminine are a cultural construct. I just thought that gender was a more modern word because it's now less taboo to talk about sex meaning intercourse and hence people got giggly about it and had to invent a new word

I probably do use them wrong all the time. I can't get my head around it. Sorry I've made a total hash of it in the following paragraph but I totally need to sleep and I can't work it out to check.

I think that I don't really mind (not that it's my decision to make or judgement to mind about or not but I'm supposed to be in bed and I can't think of better wording) if someone is trans, has lived as the opposite sex for some time, had hormone treatment, surgery and is now the opposite sex.Like naturalisation can change an American citizen into a Japanese citizen. I don't see why that shouldn't be an option if somebody feels so unhappy that they really think it would help. But it does seem really bizarre and quite alarming to skip that entire process and just be allowed to legally become the opposite sex. Is that what's actually happening or am I confused?

It's funny because at that time I would have been all for people being able to change their sex on documents as I'm all for tolerance and that, but now I'm finding myself a bit less sympathetic as transactivists attempt to chip away at womanhood as a whole.