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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Kids books - find this really worrying

64 replies

BeakyMinder · 14/02/2015 15:02

Recently I did something very sad and geeky. I read every single one of the 43 picture books belonging to my DDs and counted every single gender reference: he, she, him, her, his, hers. No complicated contextual analysis.

Result = about 75% male, 25% female Shock

So basically, females are invisible in kids books - we talk less, are talked about less, & often don't appear at all. Lots of books with all-male casts.

Maybe it's just me with a house full of sexist books, but seems unlikely given I'm the feminist DD of a feminist and have 2 DDs.

Fuck, it's depressing. Any of you think something could be done about it?

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Lovelydiscusfish · 14/02/2015 22:23

Projecting, your post re Peppa did remind me of something else I wanted to say - which is that I bloody love Peppa! And get quite bothered by readers/watchers who describe her as badly behaved, obnoxious, etc. Because to me, she's a nice girl, who is clever, has strong opinions, states them vigorously, and is also kind. I feel a lot of the opposition to her is patriarchally driven (what? A young female? Stating her opinions?) Many parents of my acquaintance have told me they don't like their dc watching Peppa because she's such a bad role model, and I utterly disagree. She's a decently strong female character, in my opinion. (Yes, there is a fair bit of casual sexism elsewhere in the stories, but choosing to ignore this for now).
So I quite like that dd enjoys the Peppa offering,

almondcakes · 14/02/2015 22:07

Perhaps you could do that then Beaky? It would take 5 mins to count how many of the books have a. a solely female title or cover illustration, b. a solely male title or cover illustration or c. neither.

As opposed to an hour and a half to read over 40 books, which it doesn't look like anyone is going to do. And it might give am idea as to whether there is a bias towards males before the books are even open.

BeakyMinder · 14/02/2015 21:59

Buffy I was just thinking exactly along the same lines ... crowd sourced database. I like the verification idea! You sound like a fellow geek Smile

If I did it, would any of you lot contribute?

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projecting · 14/02/2015 21:56

Not in this house op, although that's mainly because the book shelf is 90% fucking Peppa....

mummytime · 14/02/2015 21:50

My DD read lots of princess books. She dressed as a princess to pick up her brother from school at 4. Was generally sparkly and pink. The first ya book she read was The Hunger Games.
As a teen she is a convinced feminist and argues forcefully with those who make sexist comments.
The dreadful books she read now provide us with great grounds for discussion.

BuffytheThunderLizard · 14/02/2015 21:49

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

BeakyMinder · 14/02/2015 21:45

Sorry, x posts. That's it - it's the default male! Exactly the issue.

I wish we could stop obsessing about strong female role models, in books, films etc, and instead just have gender-blind casting & characters.

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BalloonSlayer · 14/02/2015 21:44

Not in the slightest bit helpful but was watching a documentary about Lewis Carroll recently which pointed out that Alice was the first female main character of a children's book, and extremely intelligent with it.

Yet she was probably only the hero because of Dodgson's extremely unhealthy obsession with young girls & to me the whole book has always given me the creeps and comes across as an attempt at grooming.

I would add that there has been a recent emphasis on trying to get boys to read, based on the view that boys are more reluctant readers, so that might account for the boy-focus in recent children's literature.

Lovelydiscusfish · 14/02/2015 21:42

OP, you're quite right, it is an issue.
In my (feminist) household we are currently struggling with the fact that dd's favourite story, in all the world, is Little Red Ridinghood. So patriarchal in message! Am considering just re-writing a version with pure gender reversal, and otherwise leaving it as it is (not sure yet what that would be like, it might still seem a bit of a hateful story!)
Getting distracted there, but yes, totally agree with you. And would like to do something,but don't know what.

BeakyMinder · 14/02/2015 21:38

I didn't count lead characters because it's impossible to be objective about who's the lead.

I counted gender-specific pronouns: literally the number of times a text uses "he", "she", "him", "her" etc. This is a much more objective way to see who is actually the main subject of the story, who is doing the most talking & acting, who makes things happen.

It's the same reasoning behind the Bechdel test: even a strong female lead isn't necessarily allowed to do all the talking.

In the case of my kids picture books, I certainly came across some good female characters (Maisy mouse, Meg the witch, Little Princess etc) but also huge numbers of books featuring miscellaneous male animals!

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nooka · 14/02/2015 21:33

My children are teens and choose their own books mostly now. I made some very conscious choices to seek out books with strong female leads once they had real stories, but I would strongly suspect that if I pulled out the box of small children's picture books that I have kept for potential grandchildren the vast majority of characters would be 'he', in a context where 'she' would work just as well, and I suspect that when I was reading them aloud to my children I wouldn't have thought about it at all. It was just the default that a character of indeterminate sex was 'he'. And yes I avoided all the pick sparkly princess crap that might have changed the balance a bit. I have an older son and slightly younger daughter, all books at that age were for both of them.

LonnyVonnyWilsonFrickett · 14/02/2015 21:33

Massive x posts! Should have refreshed. But I didn't read the Aliens books as 'he', from memory. Must go and check.

LonnyVonnyWilsonFrickett · 14/02/2015 21:32

Didn't you find any non-gendered items? Things like the Aliens love Underpants books for example I chose specifically because they weren't gendered at all.

AKnickerfulOfMenace · 14/02/2015 21:13

So the Mr Men books aren't sexist, but the assumption that Mr Men and the female equivalent needed to be in separate series in the first place is a reflection of society that splits by gender as is the fact that Mr Men was commenced 10 years before Little Miss.

"Dinosaurs Love Underpants" isn't sexist, but the fact that all the dinosaurs are "he" is, again, a reflection of a society where a default animal, driver, diver, paraglider is male. Catch yourself over the next week using either the male or female pronoun when you don't know the sex, and see which you use more.

AKnickerfulOfMenace · 14/02/2015 21:05

I too think you are getting a hard time, OP.

You might find this interesting;
womenintvfilm.sdsu.edu/files/2013_It%27s_a_Man%27s_World_Report.pdf

ManOf, the OP is not saying that her book collection is sexist just because it has primarily male leads. Just as a film isn't sexist if it fails the Bechdel test but not sexist if it doesn't. The SATC films both pass the test, for example, whereas there are doubtless episodes of Buffy that fail.

What it's contrasting is frequency of focus. It is a lot rarer for films to fail the reverse Bechdel, even films with a female lead or female ensemble.

almondcakes · 14/02/2015 20:59

To some extent you are talking about male and female leads, because your OP mentioned lots of books with all male casts, which is definitely going to remove female share of voice.

ManOfSpiel · 14/02/2015 20:56

But I thought your OP highlighted all male casts and 25% of female references?

In fact you said this explicitly in your first post

BeakyMinder · 14/02/2015 20:40

I wasn't talking about strong female leads, I was talking about share of voice. How much talking do male characters do versus female characters. I'm also not a conspiracy theorist btw.

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harryhausen · 14/02/2015 20:07

If we're talking older books the current ones also feature great female leads, Goth Girl, Northern Lights, The Hunger Games. It can be argued that Hermione in Harry Potter was one of the 'leads' being pretty essential to most plot line, using her intellect and bravery to save pretty much everyone most of the time.

As I'm in the publishing world, I've been at many recent meetings where publishing houses are very keen to find good, strong stories that will appeal to boys (although of course but not solely for boys) as they find that many boys loose interest in reading at a young age sadly. The picture books that they push the most are gender neutral ones that are just great stories with great characters which will stick in the mind of the public.

Children's publishing is run by women in general (99% of editors, marketing people and designers I work with are women). I can assure, I've never come across any 'agenda' that keeps stories with strong female leads out of books.

Takver · 14/02/2015 19:33

Now interestingly, I would say that the classic children's books tend to be surprisingly unsexist.

Think about Narnia, Swallows and Amazons (Susan easily balanced out by Nancy Grin ), E. Nesbit's books, One End Street, etc etc. Loads of strong girl characters.

almondcakes · 14/02/2015 18:53

Okay, my kids - one boy one girl are now teenagers. I have pulled the top 50 picture books from a box, all bought about 10-15 years ago. I haven't gone through and counted every character, but from the characters on the front cover - about 80% female.

Most common female characters-

Mrs. Armitage
Milly Molly Mandy
Mog the Cat
Meg the Witch
Winnie the Witch
Miffy
Little Red Riding Hood and other assorted Ladybird style fairy tale characters.

I didn't think about the gender when buying the books, and most were bought for DS as he is the eldest, and got handed down to DD. The ladybird ones are probably quite traditional and sexist, but Mrs Armitage certainly is not!

harryhausen · 14/02/2015 18:51

Off the top of my head, strong female picture book leads would be....(bear in mind they might not be very very well known titles).

Emily Brown and the Thing
This Rabbit belongs to Emily Brown
Hubble Bubble books by Tracey Corderoy and Joe Berger
The Princess and The Peas by Caryl Hart
The Paper bag Princess
Mabel and Me (best of friends)
Angelina Ballerina (yes Ballet etc but lots of strong female characters and Angelina is no push over)
Charlie and Lola.
Little Princess by Tony Ross

Plenty more, just look beyond the Juila Donaldson selection you get in most places. Nothing wrong with Donaldson but there's other stuff.

ManOfSpiel · 14/02/2015 18:51

Visit the library perhaps as they have a wider range of books than any of us.

And I wouldn't necessarily agree with bluelamp. The Mr Men collection may be all male based but that in itself doesn't make them sexist.

BeakyMinder · 14/02/2015 18:18

Right. I think my research method is as good as it's going to get, for the reasons outlined by Bluelamp. Sexism is an utterly subjective concept - at least with my method you can count things, and the limitations will apply equally to male and female.

But my sample was not representative cos it was just one person's collection. What would a better sample be?

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BeakyMinder · 14/02/2015 18:12

Yes, my older DD is 9 now - definitely no lack of suitable books there. Much of what she's reading was written in the last few years; maybe literature for older kids dates more quickly so the sexist old classics fall out of favour, thank god?

Maybe picture books are more boy-oriented because they're bought by parents and grandparents who favour old classics?

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