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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

How to deal with goady/"hurt" family

36 replies

MilchundCookies · 13/02/2015 06:16

I suppose I have indeed become more "radical" in my opinions/Facebook musings over the last year, but I seriously can't believe how many people HATE concepts such as enthusiastic consent, gender neutral parenting, non-victim-blaming campaigns, etc.

My SIL ended up having a real go at me over email last week, saying she can't understand where I am coming from, what on earth has happened to me, do I need help ... She believes wholeheartedly that men have it much harder than women, and that I am going to damage my children with my weird beliefs.

This is coming from a family where the daughter's (preschooler) appearance is lauded above all other achievements, the father regularly uses racial slurs, the son (toddler) is shut in a bedroom if he starts crying for any reason, and my SIL mildly watches as her husband dictates "traditional" family values.

I can't change their opinions, nor is it my responsibility to educate them, I don't feel. I love the children very much and just try to be a friendly face to them when we see them.

But I don't know how to react to the adults anymore. They are family, going no-contact isn't really an option we want, but our views are just so wholly imcompatible. They like to say things to provoke me, and then watch carefully my reaction. (My own mother does this too, actually.)

For example, BIL said the N word three times in a conversation at New Year, and then got very angry I pulled him up on it. Political correctness gone mad, he can say what he wants in his own house, etc. etc.

He then waxed lyrical about how uncessary it is to have female and male designations for jobs (we're in Germany), such as Kapitän (male captain) and Kapitänin (female captain). He knows one female captain and she doesn't want the female designation, so it should be abolished across the board.

They are coming tomorrow for DS's first birthday party. I know SIL wants to "have a word" with me to see if we can "save our friendship". Short of telling them to fuck off, what can I do? What do I say? I feel like it'll be a constant battle in my head to not pull them up on their sexist/racist shit all day, but I don't want to cause a scene on DS's birthday, good little socialised woman that I am.

Any wise words? Sorry this is so long.

OP posts:

sixandtwothrees · 15/02/2015 20:24

They sound so horrible. That poor girl...

And well done on the party going off okay.

YouBetterWerk · 15/02/2015 13:42

Milchund, that hair story is awful - the poor girl. I agree with PP about making sure you are there ten years down the line when they start to rebel

Glad that I could help and the party wasn't a disaster.

Original poster

MilchundCookies · 14/02/2015 15:40

Thanks for all your messages of support. Very much appreciated.

It went fine. The kids all got on, there were no words had with anyone, and the conversation was kept mostly nice and neutral at all times.

SIL cornered me at one point and pointedly asked how I was, because I think they are now terribly worried that I was subjected to some terrifying stranger danger rape in an alleyway as a teenager. How disappointed they'll be to find out it wasn't "proper rape", only "date rape" (in as much as you can be on a date aged 13) and there were no strangers or knives or punches thrown. Anyway, I ignored the tone and breezily said I was fine.

Other than that, one of my friends here today is pregnant, and SIL told her how awful it is being pregnant when everyone gives you advice/touches your bump/tells you what to do. I bit my tongue and did not point out the irony of her finding difficult her bodily autonomy and personhood being infringed upon during pregnancy, while simultaneously believing women are seen as fully equal to men.

The other sad thing was that their DD (aged 3) had cut her own hair recently. Cut a blunt fringe, to be precise. It looks adorable, as all 3-year-olds look, as far as I'm concerned. But SIL and BIL told us so seriously how awful it is, how she's ruined her looks, etc. Apparently, when their DD walked in having done it, SIL burst into tears and took DD to a mirror, where she was told to look and see how ugly she had made herself. DD obviously cried her heart out at that too. I wanted to fucking cry for her myself. No amount of expressing relief at their DD not having stabbed herself in the eye, or saying that it's hair FFS and it will grow back, would lighten the mood. No longer being the most beautiful child in the room (according to them) is clearly the worst thing she could do.

So yeah, it was mostly fine apart from that. I gave their kids an extra hug and squeeze as they left.

Bloody exhausted now though and in a sugar coma from too much cake and we have a grown-ups party to go to in a couple of hours. But tomorrow evening I will try to be brave and come stop by the pub. Really appreciate being able to tell someone/all of you this. It's so nice to know that the outrage and pissed-off-ness I've been feeling isn't totally misplaced, nor that I am the radical idiot they make me feel.

Oh, and thanks for your thoughts on the job descriptions. Really interesting. Will read again later properly and digest them.

OP posts:

TeiTetua · 14/02/2015 15:22

actress, waitress, headmistress, manageress, policeman, fireman and chairman...

Back in the dark ages, people might pay their bus fare to a "conductress". And if you had to die, you could go knowing that your affairs were in the hands of an executrix.

PenguinsandtheTantrumofDoom · 14/02/2015 15:17

And come for a drink in the pub after your party. We're nice, honest

PenguinsandtheTantrumofDoom · 14/02/2015 15:17

Are you ok OP?

I would practice the 'broken record' approach. Which is that you pick a response, and you stick with it. So if your BIL is ranting about political correctness and his house, you can say "You are entitled to your opinion. I think it's racist and offensive ". He goes blah, de blah, de blah. You say "as I say, you're entitled to your opinion, but it is racist and offensive." If it goes on too long, you make an excuse and leave the room (loo, kids, whatever).

It's quite confrontational, but it's a trick HR people often use in managing very, very difficult employees. Do not give them another hook to catch onto without conceding your point.

Chillyegg · 14/02/2015 14:40

My step dad ( who my mum finally left thank goodness) used to try and provoke me. He literally disliked every minority group, which was bizarre as my self and brother are mixed race. I used to react badly to his bullshit and then learnt to calmly reply and make him look like the stupid fuckwhit he was. That was enjoyable

With regards to your sil don't engage especially at your child's party (she does sound like a nightmare) . Just say this is a children's event please do not ruin it and walk away or go busy your self.
Her trying to force her opinion on you isn't ok. next time she emails just say "that's your opinion I don't agree don't force it on me don't email with your opions, I find then offensive".
If she carries in block her on email.
I feel very sorry for her children just try to be there when they're older and the parents opinions revolt them.
Lastly sorry about the essay but when your bil open uses racist words remind them that they are illegal
And of he was in public anyone could be in their right to report him to the police.

PuffinsAreFictitious · 14/02/2015 14:18

Try firefighter then....

Milch... it's my understanding from German friends that they are linguistically moving away from the gendered endings to professions, slowly but surely? So, your BiL is a linguistic dinosaur AND a racist, misogynist prick.

Hope you're ok.

StillLostAtTheStation · 14/02/2015 14:12

You asked about words which distinguish the gender of the person- apart from actress, waitress, headmistress, manageress, policeman, fireman and chairman I can't think of many in English.

Professions are gender neutral. 60 years ago a solicitor, doctor, architect, soldier and accountant is likely to have been a man and a nurse a woman but those terms are gender neutral. And should be. I can't see any reason to make a distinction and would like all of them to be obsolete.

The ones I get stuck on are fire persons and police persons. "Police" and "Fire Service" is fine for the whole body but what is a gender neutral term for their employees? I don't see any need to distinguish the gender -

"police officer?" - possibly

"Fire officer" isn't right .

StillLostAtTheStation · 14/02/2015 13:53

That's interesting. English of course can't distinguish whether a Captain is male or female. And The Guardian for example uses "actor" to mean a person who acts. Generally the "ess" format of words is falling out of use.

Oh and he sounds awful.

uglyswan · 14/02/2015 12:05

How's it going OP? I completely agree that you should shut down and ignore any attempt at "having a word". And since it's your house, any racist or sexist remarks can be shut down immediately as well: "Das ist nicht in Ordnung, das wisst ihr auch und ich verbitte mir solche Kommentare." Aaaand change the subject. For the future, I might be tempted to email your SIL this sort of thing generischesfemininum.wordpress.com/ - the generic feminine as a solution to those pesky two gender job designations. But you are a better person than I am...

GibberingFlapdoodle · 13/02/2015 15:09

Milchund: this says that a law against 'people controlling their partners by threats or coercive control' should be in force by late 2015. Doesn't actually seem to mention kids if that's all it is. Telegraph thing says it'll be passed early 2015. I'm not familiar with how legal process works. Apart from it's slow.

ChunkyPickle · 13/02/2015 13:42

Hatched-faced Harridans hogging the cake and wine

I would endeavour to be busy as much as possible - if caught in the kitchen or something, grab something, anything and say you have to take it back out to where there are other people.

I've always found that inventing a reason to have to launch myself across the room to 'rescue' one of the kids (or some other kid from one of mine) is a good way to avoid having to reply to something awkward.

Goodness I'm duplicitous!

YouBetterWerk · 13/02/2015 13:11

Thank you Almond.
Bunch of tossers
We're right behind you Milchund !

almondcakes · 13/02/2015 12:54

Both the OP and the second poster sound like they are being bullied. I suspect even if they didn't express feminist beliefs they would be bulliedby these people over something else.

I feel very sorry for both of you and hope you get some kind of positive outcome.

poorbuthappy · 13/02/2015 12:43

Are you able to judge them on their appearances? Do they conform to their own out dated ideas? We all know you shouldn't engage but sometimes it so bloody hard to be the bigger person...

Original poster

MilchundCookies · 13/02/2015 12:39

Thanks! I have never watched Lord of the Rings (it's from that, right?), but I will imagine an army of lovely hatchet-faced harridans and that will make me smile

Delicious, DH is totally on my side. He has come round to me being a "radical" and is a full convert took a while, mind. But he's not really very comfortable with confrontation and would prefer never to air our grievances, ever.

I meant to ask earlier: Gibbering, what is going to be made illegal? Emotional abuse? Is it not already?!

OP posts:

sixandtwothrees · 13/02/2015 12:19

Ooooh buffy

Good luck milchundcookies let us know how you get on.

BuffytheThunderLizard · 13/02/2015 12:11

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

DeliciousIrony · 13/02/2015 12:08

Good luck tomorrow. Sorry I don't have any words of wisdom, they sound pretty horrible and unlikely to change their views. How bizarre that they think that your son's birthday party is an appropriate time to challenge you on your 'radical' beliefs. I would aim for the bare minimum of contact with them and trying not to engage in their attempts to wind you up (difficult as it is).
What does your DP think about their beliefs/behaviour towards you?

sixandtwothrees · 13/02/2015 12:03

Yep. Like the army of the dead behind Aragorn when he goes in to fight the Orcs at Osgiliath.

Sorry, nerd tangent.

BuffytheThunderLizard · 13/02/2015 11:57

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Original poster

MilchundCookies · 13/02/2015 11:57

Thanks, six.

I won't be having any conversation tomorrow about the emails or anything remotely controversial. I'm looking forward to seeing the children playing together, and eating the I just made. DH and I have agreed that we will not let there be any atmosphere on our part (not least because other family members are coming that I don't want involved), and that we will try to act as normal.

I might well be back tomorrow for moral support!

OP posts:

sixandtwothrees · 13/02/2015 11:39

So I guess, one thing at a time then. On the party - I realise that because of these historical relationships you can't go about uninviting them and so on. But you are certainly not obliged to engage with a difficult and uncomfortable discussion at your own child's birthday, given that the focus of the day is the fact that it is in fact his birthday and not the fact that she wants to 'save your friendship' (i.e. 'fix you and your stupid views that annoy her').

Sounds like each get together will be more gritting of teeth... Really sorry you are experiencing this though, it's awful when you realise people you thought were okay are actually dickwads.

Bear in mind all this stuff about coming across as evangelical - maybe you did, maybe you didn't. But I find a lot of people think someone is being forceful/evangelical just because they express a view at all, especially if it's one that they don't find easy to process. So don't navel gaze too much about this. I'm sure you are a very lovely person.

Original poster

MilchundCookies · 13/02/2015 10:57

cailin, I honestly felt it was more a conversation between the two of us, rather than me telling her how she should parent. I was clearly wrong, as she didn't see it like that, and she said in the emails something along the lines of disliking people who are evangelical about their beliefs.

I read these boards every day, Buffy I'm just too shy to post usually (although I have done on occasion under a different username).

six, DH and I are godparents to their DC, and SIL is godmother to DS. Hence their coming tomorrow. We see quite a lot of them, as apart from idiological differences (which for the most part we have not discussed as a group), we all get on pretty well. Well, I thought we did, but apparently I have been pissing them off for some time now.

If we went no-contact with every member of our family who were racist, sexist pigs, we'd have basically no family left

Withdrawing contact to a manageable level seems about the only option. We survive on superficial niceties with FIL just fine, and I practise deep-breathing and chanting when DM comes to visit. I just thought things were different with these family members. Guess not.

OP posts:

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