'If a woman is drunk a man should not be prosecuted for rape'

"Thanks,..that is what was what I wanted clearing up. Problem is she may not remember saying yes,..and him being drunk may not have had the sense to not accept the 'yes'"

OK... I guess I'm just imagining that it's quite a small number of women who would be drunk enough not to remember having sex at the same time as being coherent enough to consent to and enjoy having sex at the same time as waking up the next day and not remembering having enjoyable consensual sex BUT remembering having sex and thus feeling they were raped.

And then bringing a successful prosecution, with the attendant normally quite unpleasant testing and questioning, not to mention life upheaval for everyone involved?

I'm sure it can and does happen but I think in the grand scheme of things, in terms of the number of rapes that are committed and not prosecuted, it is perhaps not the number one concern, when it comes to talking about consent?

"What we DO care about is the amount of alcohol in their system (often, incidentally, supplied to them by the suspect)..." That doesn't surprise me. Rape is generally planned by the perpetrator. It isn't something that accidentally happens to women because men misread signals (especially because those men are perfectly capable of reading lots of other signals from everyone else about whole hosts of things).

I doubt many sober men would pursue sex with a drunk woman

Many girls assaulted in the UK or tales coming out of Ibiza/Magaluf etc would probably say otherwise.

A rapist is going to specifically home in on women like this as there is going to be a big difference in sobriety and he knows exactly what hes doing.

no it didn't seem like that scallops, you were right to correct

They don't need educating about when a woman is too drunk to consent. They need educating that they aren't entitled to stick their dicks into women because they want to.

you are creating scenarios that don't exist Davsmum. I wonder why you would want to do that?

Sorry Petula, I wasn't meaning to be angsty so hope I didn't come across like that. I did it as well. I was just thinking around the phrasing and how it still puts some of the blame/responsibility on the woman.

The fact that you can't see a drunk man turning down sex with a woman is incredibly worrying

I said a woman that appears keen. I would be interested to hear from men whether they would turn down sex with a woman who appeared keen when they were both drunk, because these men need educating. I doubt many sober men would pursue sex with a drunk woman.

.Eh? But if they're both drunk and she says yes, then it's not rape

Thanks,..that is what was what I wanted clearing up. Problem is she may not remember saying yes,..and him being drunk may not have had the sense to not accept the 'yes'

Isn't that the very reason that he should be prosecuted for rape, because the woman wasn't able to give clear informed consent? What an utter tosser of a barrister.

ONE day all these neanderthals will be dead. ONE day.

'What if the rapist says the woman wasn't drunk? How can the victim prove she was?'

The same way all crimes with just the alleged perpetrator and the victim present are proven (or not).

'What if the rapist says the woman wasn't drunk? How can the victim prove she was?'

Through witness statements mostly, I would imagine.

"It may be in that situation she may even say yes and because he is drunk he thinks that is ok."

Eh? But if they're both drunk and she says yes, then it's not rape.

What if the rapist says the woman wasn't drunk? How can the victim prove she was?

Yes, if a man feels that when he is drunk he may be unable to recognise consent (or lack of) then he absolutely should realise that sex is off-limits. Or perhaps he should simply refrain from getting so drunk.

yes, you're right, badly worded by me

He isn't more responsible though is he. He is the only one responsible.

Davsmum - it's not about anyone being more or less responsible, it's about being clear that a man should not assume consent. Not raping a person isn't about being responsible, it's about not raping a person. If someone is enthusiastically giving consent it's not rape. If a man is in any doubt as to the woman's enthusiasm, he shouldn't have sex with her. You can't just penetrate another person's body because they're too drunk to know what's going on. I think it's clear to most people when a person is enthused by prospective sex and when they're so drunk they can't argue. If they don't know the difference they've got serious issues.

"So he has to be more responsible than she is despite being just as drunk."

he is the one at risk of committing a crime. he has to be more responsible

Of course he has more responsibility. He has sole responsibility for not raping someone. You say this as if it is a bad thing.

The fact that you can't see a drunk man turning down sex with a woman is incredibly worrying.

"It is the only safe way for both of them." It is the only safe way for women. Men aren't being violated. Women are.

Thanks.
So he has to be more responsible than she is despite being just as drunk.

I understand what you are saying but I can't see a DRUNK man turning down sex with a woman when they both seem keen. It may be in that situation she may even say yes and because he is drunk he thinks that is ok.

Men will have to realise that sex is off limits if he is out with a woman having a drink. It is the only safe way for both of them.

If a drunk gentleman meets a drunk lady, and that lady is clearly consenting... is it still consent?

Can't speak for everyone but for me very much yes.

This is what massively fucks me off about this whole fucking thing. I don't know if others agree with me but this is how I see it.

The 'drunk' thing for me is a ruse. It allows men to be like 'BUT WHAT IF WHAT IF'.

For me, the issue is people having sex with people who do not, or cannot consent. 'Does not' consent, for me is obvious and frankly I don't believe that as many people as pretend to don't understand 'into it' and 'not into it' from women. Under 'cannot consent' I would list

• legally cannot, due to age, disability etc (NB: not all disabled people cannot consent to sex, before someone jumps on that as a tangent)
• is unconscious, only partially conscious and not actively indicating consent, or asleep
• is prevented from giving or demonstrating consent (which if you're preventing someone from expressing thoughts you're already obviously not looking for consent but it does count in theory I suppose)

In the 'unconscious/partially conscious' category I would add a series of reasons you can get into that state. Of which drinking is one.

It is NOT about 'she was really into it but she was drunk!' This is about 'She was barely coherent and didn't fight me so I assumed it was fine for me to stick my dick in her'.

These two things are VERY DIFFERENT. I do not for one second see how people can't seem to see that. And I assume that in most cases it is an intention misreading, to further some weird interest of their own.

Simple questions, gents. When you're about to have sex with a woman. Is she coherent? Is she enjoying herself? If you've got two yeses there, or a 'mostly' and a 'very much yes' then great. If not, don't you think you should ask if she's ok?

If she doesn't remember the next day then she is too drunk to consent. This will be obvious. I'm not sure why you think it won't be.

Of course he should be responsible in that situation. He is the one about to penetrate another human being! He is the one about to commit rape!

Sorry - THAN she has to be, ..not that she has to be..

scallopsrgreat

Sorry - the scenario I was considering was if a man and a woman are out together - or even if they met that night, and they are both drinking and both being very touchy feely,..They both get extremely drunk and drunkenly stumble into a situation where they may have sex, IF the woman is equally responding and seems as keen as he does and they go on to have sex, she has not said No,....is he a rapist if she claims not to remember the next day?

Is he, although AS drunk as she is and caught up in the situation he believed they both wanted to continue to have sex, supposed to realise at that moment that he had better not go any further. So,..he should be responsible in that situation that she has to be?

I am not saying it is right - but it is a situation that is a bit scary..

Hubert if you are ever in doubt as to consent, for whatever reason, you shouldn't have sex with that person.