Feminist Pub 17: The Bluestocking frolics in the fells and fens of feminism

EBear, I sincerely doubt you are crap at all parts of life, I've never met anybody who is, I always like the person you sound like on here. I'm sorry you feel poorly, I hope you feel better soon.

It annoys me too when people talk about choice with regards to women leaving it too late to have children. I have loads of friends who are in their mid-thirties and have been actively trying to get to a point where they can have children, but have been unsuccessful in that. They all seem to have filled that gap in their lives with something else, exercise, study, career, etc, and to anyone who looks at them without the "insider knowledge" that I have as their friend they would seem to have "chosen" not to have children in order to pursue their other interests, but it's been the other way around, they have pursued their other interests because they aren't getting anywhere with having children. I have other friends who have made a conscious decision not to have children because they want to concentrate on their career, which I respect, but they're in the minority amongst the women I know (I don't know all women though, which was why I asked for stats)

I always say no to Friday night outings. All I want to do is sit on the couch. Perhaps you feel a nasty cold coming on and you don't want them to catch it?

I think I have some links to articles on that somewhere, Dragonlette. Will have a hunt later. (Have been ailing the last couple of days, and not doing much screen time or much anything, to be honest.) I have a friend who can rant on at length about Peter Pan men who just don't make up their minds till it's too late for the women they're with. And I can get a bit pissed off about people going on about choices. I've never really had a choice, I've never been with a man who's wanted to have children with me, and mostly I've never been with anyone at all, and I haven't even got a decent career instead, just trapped where there's no hope of progression. Just feel like I'm crap at all parts of life. (Am feeling a bit of a failure currently.)

DH has just arrived home and reminded me that we're going out this evening. The parents of one of DS's friends have invited us round for dinner. I'd much rather mooch around at home than spend the evening chatting to people I hardly know.

This is a bit closer to the question.

I think "career woman" as a phrase definitely fails the "would you say that to a man" sexism test.

I had DD at 28 and DS at 30. I retrained when they were small. I think I'm doing OK career wise. Although I clearly took the middle way (not particularly young or old when I had the kids).

I'm trying to work out if I know any career women who've ended up in the situation you mentioned. I feel like I should, but can't obviously think of any (although I have plenty of friends who have had children fairly late compared to me - I'm 39 and lots if my friend have had children in the last couple of years).

Yes petula it does sound weird, I did point this out to dp who thinks I'm over sensitive, it's just a descriptive phrase Its a shame the conversation took this turn, I had been feeling pretty good earlier and possibly a little frisky, now he's rolled his eyes at me and dismissed me as over sensitive I'm decidedly NOT frisky any more.

Thanks, that's really interesting. It's definitely a tangent to the discussion we're having, but it does tally with my experience. I had dd1 at 20 and am financially miles behind my peers who waited til later. While they were living in shared flats, saving for their house deposits I was providing for myself and dd1 and paying for childcare. Plus I couldn't go for promotions as easily because I had a lot less time than them, due to having a small child at home.

I have nothing useful for you dragonlette, but I was just thinking doesn't "career men" sound completely weird. We would never use that as a phrase.

Not what you're looking for Dragon, but as a slight tangent it's interesting that this says that educated (career) women lose the most economically by having kids early. Which is not about putting career first but about making sensible economic choices and better providing for their families.

Does anyone have any studies or articles about "career women" who put off having children til later and then find they can't/ split with partners and then can't find new stable relationships in time to have children. I'm particularly interested in knowing what proportion made the decision to leave it late themselves and what proportion had that decision made for them by their partner dragging their heels. I'm having a discussion with dp (it started as a conversation about a friend of mine who has just split up with her long term boyfriend) I walked away from the conversation when he rolled his eyes at me for saying that these "career women" are a lot less common than he thinks, the only women I know who could be considered "career women" who still want children, actually wanted their children years earlier than their male partners.

Ds1 now proud owner of smartish shirt. He said he might even wear it.

We are a scruffy family.

i find the American thing of getting dressed up hard to get right, particularly as dd just wants jeans and keeps growing so her best clothes from Sep do not fit her at all.

Had a look at pictures of past concerts. Girls in nice but not OTT dresses and cardis, boys in jeans and shirts. So more "smart" than "evening", maybe.

I don't know such things! They never told me when I came here!

That's weird, smart and evening are two different things. I'd say smart jeans and shirt are fine for 'smart' wear, but not for evening. Ring and check? If they want him to be correctly dressed they won't mind.

How old? M&S was always our go to place for this type of thing. Chinos/slacks (did I just type slacks?) With a shirt/ jumper.

Hello Heckler!

Do you also know about what smart clothes a boy should have? More to the point, can you persuade him to buy and wear them?

Morning all.

I thought that since I have a) done a feministy thing this week and b) drunk my own body-volume in champagne at the MN birthday bash, that my natural home would be in the feminists pub.

We haven't got nice jumpers either!! Maybe he can wear my uniqlo grey jumper.

It's for a concert. They say NOT black and white but "smart/evening dress". That means no jeans I suppose. We don't have anything else!! I'm going to coerce him into buying a shirt. Maybe a non-black/white shirt + school trousers? But all our school trousers are patched. I feel a bit substandard ...

I don't have a boy, but I'd have thought 'smart casual' would be more chino-ish type trousers than jeans - though some jeans are pretty smart. Nice jumper and/or jacket depending on what its for?

I've got a similar dilemma for my DD - she's doing an Arkwright scholarship interview in the Easter hols. The dress code is 'no jeans' - but trousers for all as there's some practical sessions and they may be crawling around on the floor. But the only trousers she owns, or can contemplate owning are jeans! Her 'going out' trousers are black skinnies - do you think they'd be OK?

What are smart casual clothes for boys!? Would jeans do, with a shirt? Help!!!

Bravo to her, kickass!