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Religion and women

35 replies

RaphaelHuard · 04/02/2015 07:40

Hello everyone. This is my first post. I recently became a convinced feminist and would like to polish my ideas, so that my argument are stronger when i speak on that specific subject.

Here is one of my idea about religion and feminism.

In my opinion, religions that demonised women are the very reason why they are treated as being under men in most, if not all country.

When even your religion convince you that men is above women, it explains alot.

Knowing that we, humans, are easily influenced, you then understand why men really do think they are above women.

In the bible, there is several part where it is displayed. I know they say things like: "He is the image and glory of God, but woman is the glory of man."

So you see, it is women, then men, then god above them all. In that order. Do we really need to structure relations between us? Are we obsess by hierarchy that much? Why do men feel the need to have power over there own specy like that?

All it does is helping divide the two genders. But we are way stronger united.

Without a companion, wether it is a man or woman, we feel weak. With a companion, we feel like we can accomplish anything. It is about time we learn to appreciate the opposite gender.

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Original poster
RaphaelHuard · 05/02/2015 22:29

to vdbfamily:

You look like a very nice person :) Yes, church might be a good place to educate your children because of the people surrounding you, that are very nice as well.

It can be pleasant for your childrens to sing. Surely.

But still, the church exploit people beliefs to brainwash them thinking there religion is the right one, while there is alot of religion in the world.

Why is there religion the right one, and not the others?

Cant we just use logic, and respect everyone on this planet without creating a rift between each others, like religions do?

So you see, in the end, it is a bad idea to me, even if i do not have a single doubt that the vast majority of the people going to church are kind.

The church it self is archaic and have a tendency to dominate. Just like many men do to many women all around the catholic world, thinking they are above them.

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vdbfamily · 05/02/2015 18:40

Sorry...I also meant to say that I agree that Baptism of a baby is used as an 'admission' to church but to be a Christian,that is something you have to decide for yourself.No-one else can do that to you. A child is not expected to understand that so they are 'adopted' into church family and life but they are certainly not a Christian.
I am glad you said that though as it explains some of the debates I have had on MN with atheists who feel it is wrong for me to force my children to go to church and be Christians. As I said, you cannot force anyone to be a Christian.It has to be a genuine,personal decision.

vdbfamily · 05/02/2015 18:36

I don't take it as an insult at all as it is not my personal experience of church at all. In fact, the church I grew up in did not have a priest/vicar/minister so as a congregation we were encouraged to read our Bibles,discuss what we read and decide how we understood it and what it meant today to us.
I give no power to any church leader. They are a 'servant' who works full time for the church but if they say something I disagree with I will discuss it with them. The established church may have power over some people but I have not seen it.
It is actually the most amazing place to raise your kids. It is the only place I know where a whole bunch of people from completely different backgrounds and ages chose to get together regularly when the only common ground they have is their faith. My kids have friendships with all ages. They get to sing every week. They enjoy spending time with their church family and wherever we travel in the world,we can turn up at any church and know we will be made to feel welcome. I love it.

Original poster
RaphaelHuard · 05/02/2015 17:51

Here is the first phrase describing baptism in wikipedia.

"Baptism is a Christian sacrament of admission and adoption"

So you see, it very much look like you become a christian. You are admitted into christian faith, you are adopted into christian faith.

Your child do not understand religion yet. In my opinion, it would be better to let him choose when he understand than kinda force him into entering the church.

Of course you do as you want. I know you already said that your husband decided for both of you that you would not baptise your child yet, just saying what i think on the matter.

Also, the church is the whorst kind of place you can educate your child in.

In the bible, there is no mention of hell. Hell is a creation of the church to control the mind of men and women by fear.

I do not have a problem with spirituality, but giving your self to an establishment that want to dominate you by fear, is not really what i call the best we can do. I know we wont agree on that, i hope you wont take it as an insult.

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vdbfamily · 05/02/2015 15:42

re baptism.....being baptised does not make you into a Christian, it is a symbolic gesture either done as an adult or undertaken 'in faith' by the parents and is often seen as a point at which the child is welcomed into the church family officially and the parents make vows to bring the child up in a Christian family.
It in no way makes the child a Christian.
It would be interesting to research whether as a general rule, men want to feel 'protected' by their partners or whether they want to be the protector. There are always exceptions to all rules which is why being rigidly stereotypical is never helpful. I certainly do 'care for' my husband in many ways.
re the role of women in society, I think it is multifactorial. On radio 4 today they were talking to women in politics. Many were happy to get involved in local politics but did not want to be in Westminster as it would involve being away from home for long hours.I think that is a choice many women make genuinely because they want a work/life balance and are not prepared to let work take over. There are some work roles where you are on duty 24/7 and that is why you get paid silly money. Many women do not want those sort of jobs.

Original poster
RaphaelHuard · 05/02/2015 03:35

Also, about the baptism idea, i think it is way smarter to let you children choose what religion he want for him self when hes old enough to figure it out, than force him into integrating your religion.

I was not baptize, even if both my parents were christians. It is one of the thing i am most grateful to them today :)

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Original poster
RaphaelHuard · 05/02/2015 03:32

"In the United-States, more than 80% of the most important jobs, like congress, are owned by men..."

Again, i didnt want to post my text, it posted it self, i still wanted to polish it. Annoying >.

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Original poster
RaphaelHuard · 05/02/2015 03:29

So sorry for the double post, i was not even finish checking my text and it posted it self. I must have clicked some key on my keyboard posting that text. Oh well, sorry again.

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Original poster
RaphaelHuard · 05/02/2015 03:27

to vdbfamily:

I respect your point of view. But could you please make paragraph next time? It is heavy to read a big bunch of words together.

I understand some women want to feel safe and looked after, it is natural.

Perhaps men want to feel safe and looked after, even if they do not express it as much as they would like.

Maybe because, according to the role they had for several milleniums, men are suppose to be be strong and show no weakness, instead of expressing there need, that are human needs.

Everyone want to feel safe and looked after.
t
to BuffyNotRebooted:

Well, i am also an anarchist. I do not believe in hierarchy. But, i will agree with you that hierarchy do exist in our societies.

We do submit to alot of people, or an administration, such as our government, or the company where you work.

I still think that a relation between two humans that love each other should differ from the relation with the relation your government, or your boss.

We are both from the same specy, both need one another to survive, to procreate. None of the gender should be above another, none of the gender is more important than the other.

If you feel safer in a specific role as a woman, and your man is satisfy with his role, perfect match! I have no problem there.

I have, on the other hand, a big problem with women, but mostly men, that keep women from taking there place in society.

Best example i can give is politics. In the United-States, more than 80% of the most important jobs, like congress.

And in that less than 20% of women, alot of them incline to think like the men that own those jobs, and being complacent to there ideas. Wich is why they are there.

Sadly, those jobs are also where you can influence your society the most. So you see, it is a vicious circle, that require alot of fighting. Equality is not reach yet, not even in the most civilized country, imagine in country ruled by archaic thinking.

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Original poster
RaphaelHuard · 05/02/2015 03:27

to vdbfamily:

I respect your point of view. But could you please make paragraph next time? It is heavy to read a big bunch of words together.

I understand some women want to feel safe and looked after, it is natural.

Perhaps men want to feel safe and looked after, even if they do not express it as much as they would like.

Maybe because, according to the role they had for several milleniums, men are suppose to be be strong and show no weakness, instead of expressing there need, that are human needs.

Everyone want to feel safe and looked after.
t
to BuffyNotRebooted:

Well, i am also an anarchist. I do not believe in hierarchy. But, i will agree with you that hierarchy do exist in our societies.

We do submit to alot of people, or an administration, such as our government, or the company where you work.

I still think that a relation between two humans that love each other should differ from the relation with the relation your government, or your boss.

We are both from the same specy, both need one another to survive, to procreate. None of the gender should be above another, none of the gender is more important than the other.

If you feel safer in a specific role as a woman, and your man is satisfy with his role, perfect match! I have no problem there.

I have, on the other hand, a big problem with women, but mostly men, that keep women from taking there place in society.

Best example i can give is politics. In the United-States, more than 80% of the most important jobs, like congress.

And in that less than 20% of women, alot of them incline to think like the men that own those jobs, and being complacent to there ideas. Wich is why they are there.

Sadly, those jobs are also where you can influence your society the most. So you see, it is a vicious circle, that require alot of fighting. Equality is not reach yet, not even in the most civilized country, imagine in country ruled by archaic thinking.

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YonicScrewdriver · 04/02/2015 22:27

Well, vdb, you can "surrender" to other principles. Say - if you can't agree, the status quo rules (which would have given you the same outcome on the baptism question). Or you flip a coin. Or you each get one veto a year so whoever feels so strongly they use it wins. Three ideas off the top of my head.

BuffyBotRebooted · 04/02/2015 22:18

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

vdbfamily · 04/02/2015 21:09

So give me an example of how to compromise when I felt our children should be baptised as babies and he felt they should not be. How do you work that one out? Fortunately I did not subscribe to the belief that their souls were in any way in peril should they not be baptised otherwise the situation would have been more difficult, but at the end of the day, one of us had to make the final decision. Sometimes a decision has to be made that one of you strongly disagrees with.They are often big decisions and when couples disagree they can lead to major disruption of the relationship. We as a couple discuss issues and generally come to an agreement. We do not disagree about much. If there is a major issue we fail to agree on, he has the last word. It has only happened once in 12 years.It is the way we choose to function and I believe it is a Biblical model (other Christians dispute that) and I feel no way a lesser person in our relationship for it.
As for trying to explain why I choose to live like that, apart from seeing my parents model it successfully and happily and the fact that I believe it to be a Biblical model, I think there is still an instinct in many women(that no-one on the feminist forum would subscribe to) that makes her want to feel safe and looked after whilst she sits in her 'nest' with her babies whilst her hunter gatherer husband keeps everyone safe and provides for them. I think this is why many women find it hard to relate to feminism because whilst feminists are often fighting not to be stereotyped as that type of women, there are many women who still want to live like that. They should be allowed that choice without being ridiculed or accused of letting the side down. There is one group who wants to make out we are all the same and just conditioned into male/female and there is an opposing camp who want to enjoy and celebrate the differences between male and female and enjoy how a combination of the two can bring a completeness that you cannot know as a single person. I guess there is a bit of that in me too. I have a career in healthcare and really love my job and my DH and I have taken turns to be SAHP but when my kids were little,I instinctively wanted to be the one at home with them until they were all school age and that seems to reflect the age old model of hunter gatherer head of family and nurturer/homemaker.
Sorry that is a bit of a ramble. I'll have all the feminists wringing their hands in despair and the Christian feminists feeling I am giving Christianity a bad name but I can only say it works for me. If men are using that sort of Biblical teaching to oppress their wives then they are not being loving or Biblical so it is not the fault of the teaching, but the man who is misapplying it!

MamaMary · 04/02/2015 19:38

I'm a Christian and a feminist. I believe Christ empowered and uplifted women.

But I agree that a lot of organised religion - most - is sexist and patriarchal.

My husband and I are equals - neither are above the other. I don't subscribe to the whole 'headship' thing like vdbfamily does - I believe it can be damaging to relationships.

Original poster
RaphaelHuard · 04/02/2015 19:29

to vdbfamily:

Why would your husband have power over you? I think that statement where you say that you willingly give him power over you, reflect the problem very well.

As grimbletart said, why would you want him to be the head? Cant you both be equal? Why someone above the other?

And like ifyourhoppyandyouknowit said, why not compromise? It makes alot more sense than giving power to one over the other, in my opinion.

I think it is rooted deep inside of our culture that men are above women. And i think religion helped that concept grow stronger alot during the past milleniums. But in 2015, we need to evolve.

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ifyourehoppyandyouknowit · 04/02/2015 19:09

When my husband and I fundamentally disagree about something, we both compromise.

grimbletart · 04/02/2015 18:13

vdb; can you explain why you want him to be the head. Genuine question. I find it baffling that an accident of birth (i.e. the sex you are born) is the determining factor.

vdbfamily · 04/02/2015 17:56

I find this really hard to describe to people. My husband only has power over me because I willingly give him that power. I am 6'1" and I am quite a larger than life personality. My husband is quiet and has never once raised his voice at me. He would not naturally dominate me in any sense but I see him as 'head' of our family and so I put him in that position. As I said previously, we work as a team and there is only ever an issue if we fundamentally agree on something important to both of us. Someone has to have a final say and I allow that to be him and that stops us having a massive fallout about the issue. I agree and have witnessed within my extended family, men using this idea of headship to subjucate their wives. I am not sure why the wives have put up with it really! I guess it is because historically women have been in a more vulnerable position,without an independent income and unable to assert themselves for fear of losing everything. Hopefully that will start to change but I think that sadly the main preoccupation of most teenage girls/young women, still seems to be to find themselves a man. When they learn that there is so much more to life and fulfillment, they might hold out for someone half decent who will respect them.

LightningOnlyStrikesOnce · 04/02/2015 17:33

Oh yeah, I think there are similarities between Wicca and Shinto - I think - but as world said Wicca, drawing on Celtic traditions, is quite feminist oriented, whereas Japan is famously v v sexist. Not just religion then, though yes it is used as an excuse.

LightningOnlyStrikesOnce · 04/02/2015 17:07

Yep, other religions are different, world. Keep saying I should look up modern wicca. I like Japanese shintoism too, what I know, celebrating the natural life around us sounds like a much better way to go than vengeful sky demons. Raphael, organised religion can certainly be a conservative influence and yes with Xtianity I tend to agree, but there were good elements too.

" Are we obsess by hierarchy that much". An interesting one. I started to waffle standard stuff about different societies and structures but deleted it. Shorthand: different cultures, different hierarchies, not necessarily connected to religion, connected to settlement patterns, population, 'social choice' - we need some hierarchy with these population levels, but could manage with less. I keep saying this lately: Durkheim on sociology of religion is interesting.

Original poster
RaphaelHuard · 04/02/2015 16:44

I wanted to say: He talked to us... In my previous post

We cannot edit our post here? Or do i just not see the edit button?

to: ifyourehoppyandyouknowit

That is exactly why i have a big problems with religions.

Thank you everyone for all the answers, it is very much appreciated :)

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Original poster
RaphaelHuard · 04/02/2015 16:38

to grimbletart:

I think it is far from the chicken and egg situation. My father was to me, a great philospher and poet. He walked to us alot about that concept, that was very important to him, as it was impossible to answer.

But men gaining power over other trough religion is answerable.

"Does religion justify the placing of men above women or did men use religion to justify placing themselves above women?"

It is both!

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Original poster
RaphaelHuard · 04/02/2015 16:35

to YonicScrewdriver:

Well that is very true. Men never let the place women could have taken. Why is there not a single women who wrote in the bible during the 1500 years it was written? I think it says it all.

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Original poster
RaphaelHuard · 04/02/2015 16:32

to BuffyBotRebooted:

I do have a big problem with organised religion. I have no problem at all with spirituality, but religion on the other hand is problematic.

Do you know that hell was created by the catholic church, to control men by fear?

Now that is what i call control freaks.

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Original poster
RaphaelHuard · 04/02/2015 16:30

to LightingOnlyStrikeOnce:

I think that organised religions are keeping humanity from evolving. Just look at how many people got burn alive because of there ideas that were not accepted.

Sad part is, the vast majority of those ideas they were burn alive for centuries ago are today accepted. Religions are scared of new ideas, evolution. When it is in my opinion the most important things for a society to evolve. And evolution is the true goal in life, not keeping your head in the sand.

And of course, the majority of humanity believe there religion like if it was the absolute truth, instead of asking them selfs questions. There is such hate toward new ideas, just like feminism.

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