Encouraging girls to do Physics, Technology, Engineering and Maths. Is it worth it

Fascinating chart noblegiraffe - interesting to see that other subjects (music) are also male-dominated.

YY stealth have heard that too there are cultural things going on

Sardinequen, I worked in a mixed school, but it was 60% boys, and no, biology is classed as harder than physics. That is not just the official stats, I can also back that up from teaching both! biology is significantly harder. Look at any of the government prediction formula, or the university prediction spreadsheets. whateverGCSE results you enter, you will always get a lower predicted grade for A level biology than for A level physics.

Accountancy and finance - IME second only to HR for women in the IT industry, BTW.

OK, marking my place to read this properly when is not calling me. Co-incidentally, I signed up to be a STEM ambassador this morning, and I shall shamelessly borrow some of your stats for a talk I am giving next week.

To add to the argument that it is something in our education system that causes this drop off - talking to technical women from across Europe, Middle East and Africa, it is only the Western European countries and those like Australia and the US that show this pattern. My colleagues from some middle east countries tell me that engineering degrees are >50% female there.

accountancy that should probably be.

Underwriting (Life anyway) is v female friendly too if we're sticking with an insurance theme

trixy I think accounting has been very popular with women for quite a long time hasn't it? As I understand it certain types of accountant are able to be v flexible (self-employed?) so it's a family friendly option?

certainly even when i was young the more sensible girls became accountants on that basis!

from 2008 study found Physcis A-Level the hardest subject.

IOP found that 49% of maintained co-ed schools sent no girls on to take A-level physics in 2011. The figure for all secondary schools was 46%. Combined with the figure of only 2% of girls taking A-Level Physics it seems that to be putting so many girls through is quite an anomoly - I would be really interested to hear the profile of the school / what you are doing and I expect the IOP would be interested to hear as well TBH because they are grappling with this at the moment. You might hold the answer!

I would be interested to see the stats on women in accounting Sardine. I work quite closely with accountants and my impression is that a significant proportion are female based on the couple of places I have worked. I think probably for women with an aptitude for maths finance is less intimidating than engineering etc?

Sardine - the point is that the OP was concerned about "....high paying career options are going to be closed...." if girls don't do STEM subjects

Securing a high paying job is not dependent on a STEM degree. It doesn't matter whether girls do STEM subjects because the level of pay you get in your subsequent job does not depend on your degree.

You can work in the City or become a CEO with any degree.

Applied engineering, physics and maths jobs tend to be lowly paid because they are more likely to be working in an industry competing directly with China and India.

What sort of school do you work at Caronaim? Is it single sex / independent / etc?

I have never heard Physics described as easy before!

I'm sure I've read that it's "hard" at A-Level and beyond as well.

I don't recognise Almondcakes description at all, and have worked in education for 20 years!

By all measurements, Physics is classed as an easier A level than biology!

I have seen many many girls do physics A level, however none, not one has gone into medicine, dentistry or become a vet.

Well from the IOP stats it looks like something around single sex might help. What could be done around that I don't know.

The stats around single sex / mixed raise a lot of questions generally for me. If it is affecting subject choice like that what else is going on?

trixy YY actuarial is great, loads of women. I wonder how / why it became so attractive / accessible to women? Do you have any ideas?

I did a chemistry degree 20 years ago: 20 women, 135 men. I gather the proportion of women doing chemistry has improved since then.

I think the non-vocational view of higher education as per MoreBetas post is part of the problem.

Yuh - if you're gonna work a 70 hour week for 30 years - what you studied at uni for 3 years back in the mists of time doesn't matter much.

But as a STEM Russell Group graduate who had a whole gang of career disrupting kids by the time I hit 30 - my perceived competence at numerical and technical tasks has been a cash cow I've kept milking.

When I asked for flexible working - my employer said 'no' - but then came crawling back two weeks later when they discovered how hard it was to recruit someone who could hold their own with the boffins.

While my history teacher friends have had eye-roll attitude towards needing DC flexibility - teacher training providers are falling over themselves to give STEM grads golden handshakes.

I've quit work now - having never taught a day in my life - and according to a local agency my 'rack rate' is £30 per hour, if I fancied tutoring maths GCSEs.

But I don't really need to take on many hours - because I married the boyfriend I met on my uni course - who's now leveraged his STEM degree into a secure highly paid job.

I would advise any 'undecided' girl to go STEM.

Male dominated subjects include maths, physics, computing.

Female dominated subjects include performing arts, drama and RE.

I wonder which lead to the most lucrative jobs.

It is worth it of course. But what works? Back when I did a-levels (20+ years ago) there were the same concerns about girls in science and initiatives to increase participation. (I went on a 'women into engineering' week which was part of a big nationwide program when I was 17). I did a physics degree (5 women, 50 men) and it seems things haven't changed at all.

^little less bleak

I think there are two parts to this.

Do we want more girls to become engineers?

Yes.

Do we want more of the girls who currently study Physics at A level to become engineers?

I would say no. About 30% of the girls doing Physics go on to medicine, dentistry or to be a vet. About 10% of the boys do. I do not want engineering poaching women away from medicine. We really need female doctors.

Physics is really hard at A level. A student who got B's at GCSE will probably get a C in most subjects at A level, but will probably get a D in Physics, according to the stats from A level results. This is not some Science is harder thing; A level French is also really hard compared to other subjects.

Unless somebody really loves Physics, or wants to do it for its hardness so they stand out when applying for a competitive course ( like medicine) or they want to be an engineer or a physicist or similar, it is foolish to do A level Physics. It might reduce your grades for university.

Of the girls doing Physics, 36% of them get an A compared to 28% of the boys. So there is no question of the girls' capability at the top level. They are not choosing other university courses because they are not good enough at Physics. They are good enough.

If Physics, Maths and Engineering want more women, they should be poaching more girls at GCSE phase who are currently opting out of Science completely at A level, not poaching those girls doing Science A levels who are heading towards the life sciences.

As an actuary with an engineering degree I can tell you that it does matter what a levels and degree you do if you want to become an actuary!!

Interestingly I was reading today that 40% of actuarial students are now women compared with 25% of actuarial fellows so things are moving towards being more equal in the actuarial world.

Of course it matters which A levels and which degree you take! What are you talking about Morebeta? There are jobs which simply require a "graduate", yes, but there are many more that require a specific degree, and many degree courses that require specific A levels.

Looks like only 1/5 of A-level physics candidates are female. Maths is slightly better, with 2/5 of A-level candidates being female. Chemistry is essentially 50:50, and almost 3/5 of candidates for A-level biology are female.

So whilst it is certainly a concern that physics isn't appealing to girls, the picture is a little mess bleak if you consider STEM subjects as a whole.

& I'm not even sure what the point of that post is.

If good degrees in maths engineering etc lead to lucrative city careers then why is it not a problem if girls are missing out on that due to not studying those subjects.

Don't really get your post actually. It's "well this is what I know about the topic being discussed even though it is largely irrelevant to the actual discussion".

So what's your point? Yes or no to girls studying STEM, does it matter if they aren't, is there any point in trying to understand why.

Plus not everyone is after the ££££.

"The City" isn't everyone's idea of Nirvana.

The chaps I know who took their Physics degrees and are working for super-successful companies in the states seem quite chipper to me.