Changes in how rape will be investigated- about time!

Funnily enough, I can think of quite a few occasions where I've shared a bed with a man and even though they've indicated they'd be up for more, we've simply snogged because that's all I was comfortable with at that time and at that stage in the relationship. And the men have respected those boundaries. And I've been in the reverse situation - where I would have been happy to have sex, and the man's just wanted a snog - and I've respected his boundaries. (There have also been great occasions where we've both been up for sex and a fantastic time has been had by all). I really can't see why it should be considered so difficult. It isn't, it really, really isn't difficult, to go off body language and talk to each other - not in some sort of clinical way, but in a light, jokey, sexy way - about what you want. For once, NAMALT (shouts very loudly) and not in any sort of disparraging way, but really NAMALT. I have never come across an otherwise decent man who struggles with the concept of enthusiastic consent.

MoreBeta, you are painting an incredibly poor picture of yourself, and of men in general. Do you seriously believe that the average man can't tell whether or not a woman wants sex, unless she verbally says 'yes'? You don't think that the signals are clear and easy to both identity and explain?
If there are men out there like this, it would be a very good thing if they were to establish verbal consent each time.

And can we please get rid of this notion that verbal consent means "signed in triplicate, with the signatures witnessed" nonsense, or that it somehow "destroys the mood"? If you can't manage to say "Do you want to have sex?" in a way that is a sexy come on (with choice of words picked according to your partner's personality - some may respond to an earthy "fancy a fuck?", others to a "do you want me inside you?" etc.), then perhaps you aren't grown up enough to be having sex.

I can't believe how many men out there must be having really, really crap sex all the time, if they honestly don't know what enthusiastic participation feels like! That somehow we're stuck in a time warp where a lot of men think women are sexual gatekeepers, who reluctantly agree to sex for other reasons (conception, keeping a man in a relationship, I dunno, plain masochism, maybe?) and then lie back and think of England for the duration.

With my DH if I even look a tiny bit uncomfortable (because my arms a bit squashed or something) he stops immediately and won't carry on until he's sure I'm ok. And yes, amazingly, he does say "are you ok?" This is after 13 years together - we don't just blindly stick bits in each other.

Really? I'm not very sexually experienced but are there really men out there (non-rapists) who just hop on and totally ignore their partner?

It speaks volume about his sexual technique calindana

I'm at a loss though to understand how you could be less than an inch from someone, your body literally attached to theirs, and still not be aware of whether they're smiling, moaning, touching you, etc all the things people do when they're enjoying sex.

i'm not being sarcastic btw. i imagine there are people who need these sorts of things made clear in this way, and they would need to take additional steps to ensure that they are having consensual sex

ah i see what you mean, and yes, it would be worth making that clear prior to any sexual involvement at all, and i don't think any woman would object to that

"i am not good at reading body language. if/when it comes down to it, please could you verbally signal whether or not you are happy to engage in penetrative sex in that moment."

It's funny isn't it. Men are always telling us we are giving off signals that we want sex (short skirts, drinking, looking in their general direction, being in possession of a vagina etc) whether or not we are consciously giving these signals ourselves. Yet somehow they are not capable of reading the signals when we are frantically giving them out that we don't want sex.

It's almost as if they don't want to see them.....

Oh I agree Petula, but I'm assuming MoreBeta isn't a rapist. I'm assuming he's just an ordinary man who for some reason, can't read body signals. If that is the case then it would be best for him to use words to find out what's going on.

If you aren't sure then ask. If you are sure, then you should be able to tell someone what lead you to that conclusion. I'm absolutely baffled why this is so hard, tbh.

Enthusiasm is very difficult to define. But so is 'reasonable', and we've been happy with the idea of 'reasonable doubt' for a long time now.

And as for the 'tell your sons to look for enthusiasm' idea, I'm astounded that this needs pointing out. Why the hell would you want your son having sex unless both partners were enthusiastic about it?! I mean, its not like we live in a world where women don't enjoy sex, and is something we do to please men. Or maybe I'm doing it wrong.

i would encourage the seeking of genuine enthusiasm more, because a "yes" could be coerced, if you are of a mind to rape anyway.

Oh dear, Beta. Do you realise you're sounding more and more rapey with each subsequent post? "But but but how can we poor men be expected to know when a women is consenting and when she's not?!"

Here's a gentle tip. If you're remotely unsure, don't penetrate her. If she objects to not being penetrated, she will be sure you let you know, clearly and enthusiastically.

I would also say that if you do want to have sex, but can't read body signals at all then the best thing to do would be to get a verbal yes, then you won't rape anyone, everyone will be happy.

On balance, expecting men to get a verbal yes (in cases where they have no idea what enthusiasm looks like) isn't too much to ask is it? Isn't it better that men have to ask one simple question so that women don't get raped?
Or is it so important that men get sex that it doesn't matter if some women get raped in the process?

How is enthusiasm 'ill-defined' - surely when you're literally right next to someone, with a body part inside their body, you can tell whether they're enthusiastic or not? If you honestly can't then I think you should probably stay away from women.

MoreBeta in your previous post you talked about a woman taking her clothes off and getting into bed, something women all over the country do in their millions every night without intending to have sex with anyone and without ever getting raped. What you didn't mention was kissing and cuddling - that of course is evidence of consent - can't you see that? No one ever once said a man always has to get a verbal yes.

Equally, if a woman starts out kissing and cuddling, but then later on freezes, stops participating, starts crying, seems uncomfortable then the normal human thing for her partner to do is to stop, ask her if she's ok, see that she's ok to carry on and then get a verbal yes.

Surely that's obvious MoreBeta.

Perhaps men shouldn't go anywhere near women until they can prove they can tell what enthusiastic consent is.

jump to it women! a man has declared that we aren't using the specific language he requires to understand what rape is!

Enthusiasm is incredibly ill defined. Its impossible to define in fact.