Active discussions

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

A really self-indulgent thread about sexuality and feminism and whether it's just me.

105 replies

NotAnotherFuckingNamechange · 26/01/2015 20:35

As the title says. I've NC because my usual name(s) are both pretty obvious, but if you're especially keen to figure it out PM me - I just don't want to die of shame by having this memorialised on the net.

So, my totally non-identifying (!) backstory. I'm bisexual, I've been out since I was in my teens. I've been in relationships with men because, frankly, it's a damn sight easier. Only, I've got more and more into feminism. I have had quite a lot of conversations, some of them with people on here, where people say that if they weren't with their current (male) partner, they don't know if they'd seek out another male partner - not because we don't like men, but because it is stressful.

I wondered if anyone would like to talk about that?

I'm currently single, and dating, and I keep on thinking, wow, I really don't want to go through the hassle of coping with someone else's male ego. Which feels horribly bigoted of me.

I must admit I also feel faintly embarrassed to be doing a teenage 'questioning my identity' because, for goodness' sake, I've been out for more than half my life and it really shouldn't feel as if I have to explain myself. And yet, I do.

Please patronize me gently, keep the eye rolling to yourselves, etc.

OP posts:
Original poster
NotAnotherFuckingNamechange · 26/01/2015 22:03

I think that aside from social conditioning, there's 'easier' in the sense of not necessarily having to have that translation issue of 'yes, you're nice, but the privilege'.

I'm not doing a 'wah, wah, my hard life' thing about bisexuality. I'm fine and I've had it great. But, largely understandably, people do want to pigeonhole you, because that's part of patriarchy, isn't it? Everything must fit the binary.

OP posts:
Blistory · 26/01/2015 21:56

I have this idea that dating women would be easier because women would get me, they're softer, less combative etc but I know that's just social conditioning on my part - that I expect women to perform in that way. My feminism doesn't always overcome my conditioning. Blush

And life ain't bad - I've just learnt that it's easier to say I'm happier on my own than to say I don't want a relationship, well, not a conventional living together one.

Anyway, never really considered that bisexuality was seen as a lesser sexuality, not really fully accepted by straight or gays but thinking about it, I've only ever heard negative views on it. The jokes about having your cake and eating it, not being able to make up your mind etc etc. I always thought it would be liberating, not constricting. Another example of the blinkers I unknowing have.

Original poster
NotAnotherFuckingNamechange · 26/01/2015 21:38

blis - cross posted - oh, but HOW? I can never tell which are the 'wrong' men. I hate that feeling of chatting to what seems like a perfectly nice guy, and suddenly being dropped into some kind of chatting up where I feel like a lump of not-very-intelligent meat.

And, I think even with nice men, there's the awareness of that dynamic being the norm.

OP posts:
Original poster
NotAnotherFuckingNamechange · 26/01/2015 21:37

blis - that made a lot of sense. I don't think I am still bruised, TBH, but I do certainly feel that sense that people will judge in all these ways - not necessarily negatively, but they'll all have opinions!

I'm sorry it's been so rotten for you. I have liked your posts on here, and it's trite to say, but I had no idea.

upand - yes, of course, I wouldn't be claiming that. I suppose I am nervous, because in my day to day life I know a lot of very sweet, well-meaning women, who identify as 'queer'.

And what they mean is something like 'I kissed a girl once, and it was ok' or 'I sometimes like to wear blokey clothes'. Or, even, 'I'm bisexual but married to a man'. And then, they - completely innocently - assume that 'queer' is also the appropriate label for all lesbians, including those whose experiences are so immensely different from theirs. And that sort of thing makes me very uncomfortable. Does that make sense?

I don't think it is less labelling. It's not quite fetishising oppression either, but it's not a million miles away.

OP posts:
Blistory · 26/01/2015 21:35

Sorry, just read your OP again because there was something that struck a chord and I couldn't verbalise it.

You mention not wanting to have to cope with someone's male ego. Where feminism was liberating for me was in realising that I don't have to cope with that kind of thing. If only I had known this when I was younger I would have been able to walk away from the wrong men, I would have realised that it's not worth it simply to have a partner to go to a wedding with etc etc. I would have been more comfortable with the softer geeky men I was naturally more drawn to, I wouldn't have been ashamed of my lack of desire to commit to a lifetime union. I would have realised that the norms of society didn't have to be my norms.

What I would give to have felt this way in my twenties. Or I could have been a bigger arse. Who knows ?

Upandatem · 26/01/2015 21:26

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Blistory · 26/01/2015 21:26

Straight, split up with last partner almost two years ago. I have no interest in having a relationship again.

Feminism plays a huge part in it, for me. Maybe I'm still at the angry stage but I honestly can't be arsed with dealing with someone who doesn't get my strongly held beliefs. I can't be arsed with the eye rolling, the patronising, the frustration that comes with it all. But then again, I don't have children, don't want them and am used to being invisible now that I'm older.

I get companionship from others, I enjoy my space, I enjoy deciding when I want sexual contact, I am able to be more protective of women without feeling like I have to justify it.

I still won't admit to anyone that I don't want a relationship because the assumptions are that I'm secretly a lesbian, have been abused by a man or am one of those man hating types of feminists. None of which is true. The thought of being in a relationship with a woman, it has to be said, is equally as unappealing as one with a man. I think that reassures me that aloneless for me, is a positive choice rather than a rejection of men.

Sorry that went nowhere and I still don't know if wanting to live alone is a feminist issue or a personality one for me. Society doesn't care and judges anyway.

For you, I think it's never a good idea to make decisions when you're still bruised . Whilst you might discover some fundamental truths about yourself, it's equally likely that nothing will make sense and you end up over analysing. All you can do is be open to love, be open to friendship and trust in your judgement.

Original poster
NotAnotherFuckingNamechange · 26/01/2015 21:12

Thanks, buffy. Flowers

penguins - well, I met my ex when he was 19, and brought him up in feminist ways (ish)! Grin Unfortunately, my feeling is that he will provide some other lucky person with a feminist partner. And you're so right ... I can talk to him, and I don't have that awful feeling of 'you are not seeing me as human'. And, honestly, it is depressing how often I do get that feeling, talking to othermen.

Thank you, that's really clear.

OP posts:
BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 26/01/2015 21:10

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

PenguinsandtheTantrumofDoom · 26/01/2015 21:06

I suppose for me it is that realisation that I met DH very young (teenager) and have been lucky that he has more or less come along for the ride as I've become more feminist. But any relationship with the opposite sex in this society is difficult. And I look around most of the men I know and think "nope, couldn't live with you" (not that I fancy them you understand, in the abstract) and there is this overwhelming feeling that, well, maybe there aren't many men out there where living with them on a daily basis would actually massively improve my quality of life.

If I was bisexual, I can certainly see that there would be a positive of experiencing life with someone whose societal experience of life was more in line with my own, and where we were, to a greater extent, writing our own rules (e.g. it wasn't until I met a gay couple who merged surnames that I thought "bloody hell, that's brilliant, why didn't I think of that", but of course they hadn't had easy societal norms to fall back on if they wanted to share a name).

Does that make even the tiniest bit of sense?

Original poster
NotAnotherFuckingNamechange · 26/01/2015 21:05

Sorry to hear about your ex, ttip. Sad

I do agree with you - I think it probably is easier to find a non-abusive, nice, feministy woman than a man.

OP posts:
Original poster
NotAnotherFuckingNamechange · 26/01/2015 21:04

buffy - it's daft, isn't it? But it does worry me.

You're right, I know there's that stereotype. I could claim to be a brilliant lesbian feminist, and I could bang on about my oppression. And I would feel like a giant fraud, you know? Because I do not have that experience, not all of it.

I don't in the least regret relationships with men - I regret my wanker ex, but that was because he was a wanker. I have two absolutely lovely male ex partners and I'd be so much worse off as a person, if I'd never been with them.

I think part of it is, I've got comfortable with the kind of feminist I am. I get to say I'm not straight, but I get straight privilege, I'm with a man, and I see both sides.

I have a thing for someone who is very much a 'wow, yes, just come out, seeing the world in full colour' lesbian, and I think it's making me feel as if I need to find a way to do this differently, so I feel comfortable.

OP posts:
TtipParty · 26/01/2015 20:59

Yep, I can relate. I've been in and out (pardon the pun) as bisexual since my early twenties. I became more and more attracted to women as my marriage was ending and I can see myself with a woman now in a way I just couldn't before. Stbxh was a particularly unpleasant and abusive man to live with. I'm also getting to feel like the odds of meeting a decent man aren't as good as the odds of meeting a lovely woman, despite the ratio of straight men to gay women.

Original poster
NotAnotherFuckingNamechange · 26/01/2015 20:58

ocelot - well, yes. Fair point.

captain - yes, similar here.

I think, more, it's feeling I am still second-guessing.

OP posts:
BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 26/01/2015 20:54

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Original poster
NotAnotherFuckingNamechange · 26/01/2015 20:54

Big cross post.

Thank you, buffy, you are very lovely and kind. I will live with my negative space. Smile

I like the wisdom of just 'being,' but I don't want that to turn into putting my life on hold.

penguins - YY, that is what I was thinking I'd heard people say. And of course, it is complicated, because I think in any relationship, there's this social pressure to say that if it ended, you'd obviously want to get together with another bloke at some stage. And I find it really interesting that feminists seem to be ok with the idea that, actually, that might not be ideal.

OP posts:
CaptainHolt · 26/01/2015 20:54

I used to identify as lesbian from about 13-17. Accepting that I was bi was hideous because it felt like all the 'it's just a phase' people were right and it made my relationships with girls, adolescent as they were, seem less meaningful because of that. Maybe you're feeling that if you decide to only date women, then people will start to think of you as a lesbian, not as a bisexual, then your past relationships with men will be judged as something that you just tolerated for an easy life. I don't know

ocelot41 · 26/01/2015 20:53

I hadn't realised just how deep social conditioning goes for men...all men. It is just so wearing. But then some of the women I have been with have been equally hard work because of the whole ' I think I might be gay/bi so clearly I must now hate myself' gig. That's pretty wearing too.

SardineQueen · 26/01/2015 20:52

Ah OK x-posts.

SardineQueen · 26/01/2015 20:51

Yes that's what I''m getting at. Even if you've been out as bisexual, if you haven't ever been in a serious relationship with another woman then that is a new thing and a big deal.

If you haven't. Which I dont' know Grin

PenguinsandtheTantrumofDoom · 26/01/2015 20:51

And what Buffy said. Absolutely.

Original poster
NotAnotherFuckingNamechange · 26/01/2015 20:50

Yes, you're quite right - I've never had a serious relationship with a woman; I've had partners of both sexes.

I'm sorry, I'm not really managing to spit out what I think. But I do think it's the internal 'what does this mean about me, and me as a feminist' side of things I'm feeling I need to reassess, not the external 'how will people see me' side of it.

OP posts:
PenguinsandtheTantrumofDoom · 26/01/2015 20:50

Hi!

I think about this sometimes. I am not sexually attracted to women at all. But I often think that, if DH and I split, it would be a serious consideration whether I wanted another relationship.

Not sure if that contributes much, but it is something I think about.

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 26/01/2015 20:49

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Original poster
NotAnotherFuckingNamechange · 26/01/2015 20:47

Cross post.

Yes, but sardine, you're not splitting with your DH (not that I split with my ex for that reason). And there is a difference between thinking you'd be single if you split up, and thinking you'd date women. And yet, until recently, I don't think I'd quite cottoned onto that distinction.

OP posts: