ISIS and women

Some one at the start of this said that if sexism isn't stamped out it leads to ISIS. I don't agree if insane, fanatical, religious extremism is not stamped out it leads to ISIS.

Is it now a given on this thread that ISIS' prime motivation is the enslavement of women?

ISIS seems from what I have read an equal opportunities hater. As I understand it their prime motives are to impose their toxic brand of religion on as many people as possible. Women are terrible collateral damage, not the prime motive.

They kidnap, torture and kill Christian men; they kidnap torture and kill gay men; basically anyone not like them is fair game.

I am not attempting to criticise people in the present Basil. I am only comparing to the Nazis because that is the current thread other than this one discussing women's testimony.

Women from minority religious groups are being sold into slavery. They do not have the option of a proper marriage.

Like Breaking Dad has said, the situation is more similar to Bosnia and Rwanda. The laws around genocidal rape are in part a consequence of Bosnia.

Sorry I mean agree with PUFFINS

Almondcakes "How many women were enslaved in the Falklands War?"
This was where my Geneva convention (from quick search the Fourth) comment came from and western forces though not always perfect at least there is a system in place to protect civilians and prosecute.

This is an unconventional war I would say like the Bosnian and other African internal battles e.g hutus vs tutsis. So I would agree with Almondcakes that this would happen anyway to women and is just validated by their interpretations of Islam.

Choudry is a muslim troll, and Hamza was Al Queda which though aligned to my knowledge are different entities which are having their own power struggle. Quick google -

"Al-Qaeda has insisted it has no links with the Islamic State in Iraq and the Levant (ISIS), which has been locked in deadly clashes with rebels in Syria." www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-26016318

I thought Al queda was about fighting the west in Muslim lands, and started from Bin laden wanting US out of Saudi? whereas ISIS is about creating an Islamic state.

Yops "missionary" work taken to a warped, twisted, genocidal extreme?

19th century Christian missionaries are often criticised for seeking to impose Christian views on what they might have referred to as " heathens" and interfering. Of course they didn't rape potential converts or threaten to murder those who refused to convert.

www.sahistory.org.za/missionaries

Or are they the 21st century version of Ferdinand and Isabella and the Inquisition?

I think those who are saying the religious element is irrelevant mean by that is that rape would still happen if this were a territorial war. Which is true but that is ignoring the stated aims of IS itself and the fact it seems to be an option that their victims male and female might be spared some of the torture if they convert (or as IS presumably put it , revert) to (their brand ) of Islam.

'It is to do with religion as a tribal marker: 'us' v 'other'. Not the faith per se.'

Not being picky, chantico - could you expand? I cannot think of a religious war - e.g. the Crusades' - that wasn't an 'us' vs 'them'. That is the whole point, isn't it? ISIS don't just want to win. They want to convert people to Islam. Have you read stuff by Hamza and Choudary?

It is to do with religion as a tribal marker: 'us' v 'other'

Not the faith per se.

This has nothing to do with religion, .......The only real difference here is the added bullshit of extremism in religion.

I don't understand that point. But if you don't think that ISIS are motivated by religion, I think you are wrong. Here is the Isis declaration document - their raison d'être;

myreader.toile-libre.org/uploads/My_53b039f00cb03.pdf

It's title is 'This is the promise of Allah'. And you don't think that is religious? I think you are letting your politics blind you to all of this.

Yes, and I fear you're right too - in the same way as we're not hearing about the victims of systematic rape and murder in other countries.

Vivacia, that should have read all those things are true, as in yes, I agree.

Vivacia, I think that although things are true, particularly as many of us will have had the opportunity to hear about it from people who we have met who were there.

But we have had that testimony for seventy years because people fought to be heard, and also because certain immigration policies allowed large numbers of Jewish and other groups in together, which has preserved cultural continuity.

I do not think we can be confident that there will be enough Mandaeansleft to get their story heard.

I think that it's more to do with us having had 70 years to collect testimonials, rather than 7 months, and also because it happened here in Europe, within a familiar culture and with less of a language barrier.

This thread prompted me to read up on ISIS and the first thing I realised was how poor an attempt I could make given no Arabic.

I don't think it is odd at all. Some of these people will be tried for genocidal rape and crimes against humanity. That does not happen in every single war.

The current war has not been going on very long. There are 7000 womenand children from one of the minority religious groups alone in slavery.

How many women were enslaved in the Falklands War?

Of course it has something to do with religion. One religious group - violent Islamists intends to rape, murder and wipe out a pacifist egalitarian religious group - Mandaeans because of their religion.

The genocidal nature of targeting an ethnic group because of their religion is part of why the UN is calling what they are doing a crime against humanity, and part of the basis of what they will be tried for.

How very odd of you then. And inaccurate.

Yes, I am suggesting that Puffins.

It is not comparable to every other war ever.

The fate of women in ISIL occupied territories is, sadly, the same as the fate of women in every war ever. Or are you seriously suggesting that women haven't been killed, raped, forced into some sort of slavery as a result of every war ever?

This has nothing to do with religion, and everything to do with how society has always viewed women. As chattel, spoils of war. The only real difference here is the added bullshit of extremism in religion.

Vivacia, I don't mean to sound accusatory. I think it may be because people are very familiar with WW2 through education, museums, books and so on. They have a framework to fit the women's testimony in.

People may be completely unfamiliarwith the situation of, for example, the Mandaeans, their culture, history, beliefs and way of life and so on. It's harder to think about the individuals involved without a context you are familiar with.

Unlike the Ravensbruck thread, there has been little attempt to discuss the testimony and specifics of this situation, and a much bigger attempt to generalise about it.

Why do you think this is? ( You sound quite accusatory).

Breakingdad, some of their stated claims are genocidal. Not all of the religious groups are given the option of converting. They are just to be wiped out.

Their seem to be several different issues:

1. Direct aid and the rights and wrongs of the forms that should take.

1. Dissuading people from going. I would separate this into changes to the general education all young people receive and specific interventions to those on the fringes of ISIS. I heard that Germany were using the same approach they use with Neo Nazi teens and having some success.

1. A need to record and spread the testimony of the minority groups this is happening to. Compare the way the Ravensbruck thread went compared to this one. Look at the descriptions there of how and why women's testimony was ignored from there and see it happening again now. This is important for a. the prosecution of crimes against humanity, b. Our future understanding and c. respect for these women, men and children.

1. Changes to immigration policy around groups at serious risk of genocide, including international co-ordination.

But the OP was asking about stated aims and her hearing about the situations of these women. Unlike the Ravensbruck thread, there has been little attempt to discuss the testimony and specifics of this situation, and a much bigger attempt to generalise about it.

I thought there stated aim was a caliphate and anyone who stands against this is going to be killed/tortured/raped.

Almondcakes i am not sure where to go in answer to your post, they certainly aren't going to be signing up to the Geneva convention in any hurry and for them why should they?

Syria is in chaos, who are the good guys?!

The West is worried that once Assad (secular) is deposed they there will be a massacre of Christians whom Assad largely turned a blind eye to. I think this is one of many reasons that is stopping the west getting involved.

This is not some group of foreigners who we should or should not compare to Western men. Thousands of the members of ISIS are educated Western men and women.

Among their stated aims is genocide. They are committing genocidal acts. They are commiting genocidal acts of rape.

It is not comparable to every other war ever. It is comparable to other situations where people attempt to commit genocide.

But comparisons should be about trying to understand and stop this situation, not about making out it is one of those things that always happens.

The OP raised some valid points most of which were iignord

I hope you don't feel this OP. I thought it was a good idea for a thread, and certainly got me thinking.