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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The optional nature of men's lives

411 replies

cailindana · 24/01/2015 12:35

I was talking about this with DH recently and he agreed with much of what I said.

It strikes me that boys and men have very "optional" lives in comparison to girls and women and that this influences their whole approach to life. What I mean is, girls learn pretty early on that their choices will be restricted, that their options will be limited. From only being allowed to wear skirts and then told they mustn't show their knickers (thus removing the option to be active) to suddenly having to deal with periods and curtailing activities due to that, to then contending with the prospect of unwanted pregnancy and thus having restrictions on sexuality to then being told not to walk certain places not to do certain things for fear of being attacked and ultimately being told you "can't have it all" - ie choose work or children.

IMO, women (in general of course, not all) learn very quickly that there are consequences to things, that you can't always have what you want, that sometimes you just have to get on with it and face the fact that everything isn't perfect. I think that influences their approach to so many things in life from housework, to illness, to childrearing. Men on the other hand, always seem to have options open to them and I think that leads to a certain immaturity, a lack of acceptance that sometimes you can't have what you want. I think it has a bearing on how men approach things like fatherhood and the idea that now you don't have any choice but to knuckle down and accept your life is different - so many men seem to want to "opt out" and carry on as if nothing is different, thus leaving women to, as usual, take the hard road.

While I don't think it's right that women often end up carrying the burden I'm not sure it's necessarily a bad thing to have that maturity foisted on you. I think while women do lose out massively in the earlier years, especially when children are young, that maturity and that acceptance stands them in very good stead as they get older and ultimately they reap the rewards. I notice among older friends that women seem to come into their own in their 50s whereas men can't face that their options are now becoming limited and they no longer have the world open to them - hence mid-life crises etc. I think also because men expect options they tend to skirt on the edges of responsibility, never full accepting the hardship of, for example, parenthood, and thus ending up on the fringes as children get older and become true friends and companions. Thus women, who have been the stable guiding force in childhood, mucking in, organising, being the go-to person, reap the rewards of a close relationship with their adult children, whereas men, who focused on work, never really got their hands dirty with parenting, are now coming to retirement and the loss of that source of status but have not really jumped in with both feet in family life and so don't have that either. They are left with very little.

I am not saying the equality that exists is a good thing. What I'm saying I suppose is that while women look on enviously at men continuing their careers and never attending a parents' evening, they might do well to remember that the emotional toil and labour they put into their families is really and truly worth something. Jobs come and go, they give no love or longterm support. But children are for life, and being that person who always knows where the PE kit is is important, is special.

Men are missing out. They just don't realise that until it's too late.

OP posts:
PenguinsandtheTantrumofDoom · 25/01/2015 17:39

yy scallops

scallopsrgreat · 25/01/2015 17:36

I find it quite easy to understand why people think that way. Its the hundreds of messages a day they receive that contribute to it. It's not ridiculous to take on board those messages.

Even if they don't take on board those messages there are subtler things which maintain those norms. Such as female dominated industries or those that employ a lot of women e.g. public sector being more geared to flexible working and male dominated industries, not so much. So it is easier for women to be able to work more flexibly. Questions are asked of women that aren't asked of men around childcare and working. Expectations are different. All these add up.

PenguinsandtheTantrumofDoom · 25/01/2015 17:34

"I dont understand why some people think that way. Do you think they know they are being ridiculous but are just ashamed that they arent standing up for themselves? I cant see how anyone would actually believe it."

Some people do genuinely think this way. My super religious friend does.

Some people 'choose' to believe it because the alternative means confronting some unpleasant realities. No one likes to believe that someone who they love, and who loves them, is effectively taking advantage of them. Denial can be a powerful mechanism of self-protection.

Some people know what's going on, but know nothing will change and they'd be facing the reality of a broken relationship.

Lots of reasons.

ShumbTucker · 25/01/2015 17:33

The biological father of DS opted out when I was pregnant and we didn't see him for dust. I met DH when DS was a tiny baby and DH assumed the role of father with relative ease, he loves being a parent and engages fully in family life. DH has received a lot of stick for "playing dad", from comments about "you would feel differently if it was your own" and "yeah you love him but not like your blood". He left his last job as when DS was sick and I needed to be in work for a presentation his ex employer told him "he isn't your kid so you need to be here". Even though DH has opted in fully, he is still seen as less than the secondary parent and it hurts him deeply, he thinks he is damned if he does and damned if he doesn't. His choice to be a good, dedicated and reliable parent is clouded by the "blood is thicker than water" brigade, he's trying to do the right thing but it's not good enough for some people. Hmm

PenguinsandtheTantrumofDoom · 25/01/2015 17:31

I would agree with that, and it comes back to Cailin's original post. That many people see women as better suited to childcare. So parenting is their default. Sure, you can depart from the default and work outside the home, but it's assumed that, when you are around your children, you are better suited to parenting them, and that being responsible for them is your default.

On the other hand, a man will far more often see himself as choosing what he is doing with his non-working time - he may choose to involve himself in parenting for 2 hours by doing the football match, but then he can choose not to parent for an hour by simply starting to mow the lawn. Not denying that that's useful. Just saying that a woman about to mow the law would, IME, be far more likely to 'check in' and hand over controls. "I am going to mow the lawn. You listen out for Freddie when he wakes up from his nap?"

creambun2014 · 25/01/2015 17:30

I dont understand why some people think that way. Do you think they know they are being ridiculous but are just ashamed that they arent standing up for themselves? I cant see how anyone would actually believe it.

TheFriar · 25/01/2015 17:26

What there is, in today's society, is a belief that women are just better suited to childcare or that men just don't see the mess

YY to that.
The problem is when the majority of people think that way.
And at the moment, this is what it is :(.

creambun2014 · 25/01/2015 17:23

Dh did a large percentage of feeds with dc 2 when I breastfed for 9 months. I wanted to still go out with me friends on nights out and have nights to sleep. I am not committed enough to do 100% of the childcare I like doing my own thing too much. I havent this time as went back so early but I could have expressed for dh to do it but will admit it is more of a faff.

PuffinsAreFictitious · 25/01/2015 17:20

There is no difference in men and women bringing up children. To say other wise is to pay attention to the type of person who thinks that ladybrain exists, surely.

What there is, in today's society, is a belief that women are just better suited to childcare or that men just don't see the mess. It's bollocks, utter utter bollocks. However, a large number, if not the majority of people have been brought up with these narrow interpretations of domestic sex roles, there are people who truly, honestly believe that men are incapable of nurturing children. I've met far too many of them. They truly honestly believe that they stand for equality too, a lot of the time, which is interesting.

PenguinsandtheTantrumofDoom · 25/01/2015 17:19

"but the majority of mums dont even breastfeed nowadays."

I see your point if you are talking by the end of maternity leave. However, that statement isn't statistically accurate based on government figures. They fluctuate, but close to 80% initiation rates and about 45% at 6 weeks is common I think.

I agree with your fundamental point though, that a dad and a mum can look after a baby just as well as one another. There is however something of a bar in the very early days if a woman wants to bf.

PenguinsandtheTantrumofDoom · 25/01/2015 17:16

This is rather continuing a tangent to Cailin's original post, but on clothing. I was in the City on 7/7. The level of practicality of the men's clothes as they suddenly faced walking 2/3/7 miles home was startlingly greater than that for the women, taken as a group.

creambun2014 · 25/01/2015 17:09

I can see how the people that do this probably are constrained by their way of thinking. You do see the whole you aren't a good mother if you have hobbies/a career/a life you must be tied to them for x amount of years from certain women.

I see no difference in men bringing babies up to women doing it. The only thing mrn cant do is breastfeed but the majority of mums dont even breastfeed nowadays. I dont believe there are any other differences and some men are better than women at it and vice versa

PuffinsAreFictitious · 25/01/2015 17:07

Again, Phaedra....

No one is saying that your experience isn't real. And yet, you have said repeatedly that other women's experiences aren't real, because they don't match yours. Can you not see the difference?

PhaedraIsMyName · 25/01/2015 17:02

Me too but from much of what is on the Feminist board one might form the impression such families don't exist.

creambun2014 · 25/01/2015 16:20

I was always brought up with the attitude of 'us creambun women dont cook, clean or run around after men'. I feel strongly that I would never do that but I am probably a complete hypocrite as I am happy for dh to do it. He knows thats my opinion thought and it has been from before we married. Expectations are engrained in families either way round.

YonicScrewdriver · 25/01/2015 16:15

Grin I do wear brogues and trousers; not a tie, though!

Doesn't stop me observing the heels and fitted dresses on everyone else!

TheFriar · 25/01/2015 16:14

Phaedra, the uniform my DH is using is a pair of black trousers with a polo shirt with the company logo on.
No wool, let alone linen there!
He is in the automotive industry.

When I was working in the same industry, as a woman, I was expected to wear a skirt to go onto the shop floor (!). Strangely enough, I've never followed that (clearly not practical) but, as I was in trouser all the time, it wasn't fully 'smart' clothes.

On that line, I remember when we had some new shirts ordered with the company logo on. Men got a blue shirt in cotton (practical and comfy to wear to go on the factory shop floor). Women got a white nylon shirt, swaety AND transparent (Not comfortable and unsuitable to use on the shop floor). But it was 'nicer looking' Hmm....

SardineQueen · 25/01/2015 16:12

I love that some people, when it is pointed out that "posh" or "smart" for women means something different to "posh" for men, say "I have quite literally never noticed that". yeah right Grin

See what sort of looks I'd get if I went into work in a male cut suit and tie and men's brogues. Or what sort of a look my male colleagues would get if they went in in a fitted business dress showing a respectable amount of decolletage, teamed with some tasteful jewellery and makeup and then some nice heels Grin

YonicScrewdriver · 25/01/2015 16:11

Phaedra, I believe that you have the experiences you report. You often come across as if you don't think others have the experiences they report, on grounds yours are different. I'm not sure why that is.

SardineQueen · 25/01/2015 16:09

I have never met you or your husband Phaedra Grin so I can't comment on your sartorial stylings!

If you look at people on the red carpet, or in a typical office which demands full business attire, you will see women in figure-enhancing clothes and heels and makeup, and the men will be in suits. The women will have more flesh revealed than the men. Basically the only skin showing on the men will be neck and face. And not even too much neck with a tie on Grin

I pass thousands of people on my commute every day and can cheerfully confirm that women's attire is on average much more revealing, colourful, varied than men's.

TheFriar · 25/01/2015 16:07

The other pitfall of course, is what I've seen happening in France.
Most women (I think it's 80%) work. And work full time as there are virtually no part time jobs.
So the responsibility for working and bringing a wage is very squarely on the women shoulders too.
But somehow, the responsibility for chilrearing and running the house is still only a woman's responsibility Hmm.

Clearly that's not on either! And the reason according to some of french friends why so many relationship where the woman is a professional collapse. Because they are refusing that their DH is refusing the responsibility for childrearing side of things.

But that means that, at least, women are much more respected professionally than over here. They are expected to be at work and have responsibilities (even though still not as much as men, not the same wage etc...). Whcih is a good first step.

PhaedraIsMyName · 25/01/2015 16:04

It's to do with gendered concepts of "smart" I suppose? And for female with "smart" comes "attractive" and for men I guess "smart" is teamed with "practical"

Some one else on another thread pointed out the falseness of this statement. Smart work clothes for me can be a dress and a pair of ballet flat pumps. Said dress can be wool, silk or cotton adjusted to the seasons. Some of them are even washable. As I actually like wearing dresses my work "uniform" can be and is worn outside work.

For my husband it is a tailored wool suit which can only be dry- cleaned, shirts which need ironing (by him) cuff links and a tie and laced leather shoes in all seasons. He can , if it's really hot swap the wool suit for a linen suit.

Yet his is somehow more "practical" than mine?

SardineQueen · 25/01/2015 16:03

What industry is it Phaedra if you don't mind me asking where there is constant participation by women throughout?

In my industry it drops off a cliff! And in the area of the country I work TBH I noticed that up to about 35 there are young men and women dotting around everywhere and then above that suddenly women get rather scarce!

TheFriar · 25/01/2015 16:02

Same here Sardine, the setups are very similar. No one bar one mum is working full time. That's 60 families with that set up of either SAHM or working part time.

Because of my job, I work 2 days 'late' (ie 7.00~8.00pm). DH pick up the dcs these two days.
Most women look at me strangely and clearly think I'm an awful mum for doing that. And the 'Is your DH really able to cope, prepare dinner for the dcs and then take them to activities?' look is common too which tends to upset DH who thinks there is no reason why people would think he isn't 'clever' or 'able' enough to do that!

cailindana · 25/01/2015 15:59

Yes it is the default Phaedra. Hence the fact that there are 2.1 million SAHMs and 227,000 SAHDs.

OP posts: