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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The optional nature of men's lives

411 replies

cailindana · 24/01/2015 12:35

I was talking about this with DH recently and he agreed with much of what I said.

It strikes me that boys and men have very "optional" lives in comparison to girls and women and that this influences their whole approach to life. What I mean is, girls learn pretty early on that their choices will be restricted, that their options will be limited. From only being allowed to wear skirts and then told they mustn't show their knickers (thus removing the option to be active) to suddenly having to deal with periods and curtailing activities due to that, to then contending with the prospect of unwanted pregnancy and thus having restrictions on sexuality to then being told not to walk certain places not to do certain things for fear of being attacked and ultimately being told you "can't have it all" - ie choose work or children.

IMO, women (in general of course, not all) learn very quickly that there are consequences to things, that you can't always have what you want, that sometimes you just have to get on with it and face the fact that everything isn't perfect. I think that influences their approach to so many things in life from housework, to illness, to childrearing. Men on the other hand, always seem to have options open to them and I think that leads to a certain immaturity, a lack of acceptance that sometimes you can't have what you want. I think it has a bearing on how men approach things like fatherhood and the idea that now you don't have any choice but to knuckle down and accept your life is different - so many men seem to want to "opt out" and carry on as if nothing is different, thus leaving women to, as usual, take the hard road.

While I don't think it's right that women often end up carrying the burden I'm not sure it's necessarily a bad thing to have that maturity foisted on you. I think while women do lose out massively in the earlier years, especially when children are young, that maturity and that acceptance stands them in very good stead as they get older and ultimately they reap the rewards. I notice among older friends that women seem to come into their own in their 50s whereas men can't face that their options are now becoming limited and they no longer have the world open to them - hence mid-life crises etc. I think also because men expect options they tend to skirt on the edges of responsibility, never full accepting the hardship of, for example, parenthood, and thus ending up on the fringes as children get older and become true friends and companions. Thus women, who have been the stable guiding force in childhood, mucking in, organising, being the go-to person, reap the rewards of a close relationship with their adult children, whereas men, who focused on work, never really got their hands dirty with parenting, are now coming to retirement and the loss of that source of status but have not really jumped in with both feet in family life and so don't have that either. They are left with very little.

I am not saying the equality that exists is a good thing. What I'm saying I suppose is that while women look on enviously at men continuing their careers and never attending a parents' evening, they might do well to remember that the emotional toil and labour they put into their families is really and truly worth something. Jobs come and go, they give no love or longterm support. But children are for life, and being that person who always knows where the PE kit is is important, is special.

Men are missing out. They just don't realise that until it's too late.

OP posts:
PhaedraIsMyName · 26/01/2015 22:29

Penguins Us yokels in the provinces do talk about blue chip (although we've lost 2 of the biggies McGrigor Donald and Dundas & Wilson recently) but not sure if we're allowed to !

As far as I can tell from web-sites, who I deal with at work, who I meet socially etc and just friends women are far, far better represented at senior level in the provinces.

There also isn't the 24 hour culture expected of either sex.

PetulaGordino · 26/01/2015 22:29

Sorry auto-correct - that should be Ebearhug

PetulaGordino · 26/01/2015 22:28

Ebearhug I used to work in a company with a massive Dutch office and colleagues there seemed to have a far better quality of life than in other regions (UK was better than the U.S. as you might expect). When the dutch men went on holiday they didn't check emails and weren't expected to, unlike in the UK and US. Far more men had flexible working hours and worked from home than in other locations. It was the same work, just different working culture

YonicScrewdriver · 26/01/2015 22:26

Ah, to me blue chip is a very elastic phrase, usually used to mean "a big company you've heard of" like British Gas or Virgin

creambun2014 · 26/01/2015 22:24

Ebear - The main factor to me is if it is all you have ever known you dont buy into he lies or guilt about being a mother. My mum returned to work when I was 6 weeks old. I cant remember, dont care and it was never an issue. When she did it really was a rare occurrence.

I read about mothers 'guilt' and just dont get it. It is just a social control so women accept domestic life imo.

PhaedraIsMyName · 26/01/2015 22:21

Actually Yonic what I meant is that I'm not actually sure if "blue chip" is a recognised term for non London firms

YonicScrewdriver · 26/01/2015 22:21

Yup, I've seen a letter from a CEO (owner-manager) to a job applicant with explicit reference to her family plans. Many years ago, at least!

She could've made something of it, of course, but it wouldn't have got her a job.

PenguinsandtheTantrumofDoom · 26/01/2015 22:19

I was just pointing out the statistic. Apologies I assumed you meant a City firm. TBH, I've never heard anyone use the term 'blue chip' about a law firm rather than a company, so I was guessing what you'd meant. Maybe it just wasn't in common currency in my area. Maybe the stats are much better across those commercial firms outside London. Are they?

(By the way, I don't look down on firms based somewhere other than London. If that's what you are implying with the 'uppity' business)

PhaedraIsMyName · 26/01/2015 22:18

I've had a couple of men who own companies say to me in social situations that they would avoid hiring a woman of my age because of their own assumptions about my life plans.

If any of my male partners said that and it got back to the managing partner or the chairman they'd be faced with equality training. And get a bollocking for potentially landing us with a discrimination claim.

Whether they or I like it, such behaviour is not acceptable.

YonicScrewdriver · 26/01/2015 22:17

"I suppose it's a bit uppity for long established successful provincial firms to think of themselves as blue chip."

Again, no one said this.

Why not just say "actually, my firm is one of the blue chip provincial ones"?

EBearhug · 26/01/2015 22:13

But, we're the "odd one out". Not that that affects anything, but you know, it's interesting, the dynamic.

I was at a women in tech event last week, and one of the speakers made the point that it does take a particular personality to endure being the odd one out all the time, and that it's too much for some people, who wouldn't have a problem if it were already a more balanced workforce. I suspect the require quality may be stubbornness...

I think it is possible for more businesses to manage more part time workers; most of my (male) Dutch colleagues do 4-day weeks, a decision taken over a decade ago to save them from redundancies - everyone do a four-day week rather than losing any person completely.

One of my (male) German colleagues is in the process of requesting a 4-day week, but it's not going down well, because of the precedent it would set. I think sort of mindset has far more to do with why more people don't get p-t, rather than actual workload and necessity, at least when it's asking for a 4-day week; I can see where they'd be coming from more if someone requested a drop from 5 days to 2 days, but even then, it might be feasible, depending on the role and so on.

PhaedraIsMyName · 26/01/2015 22:13

I'm not in the City and never said I was so excuse me for not being terribly convinced by an out of date article in the most Londoncentric paper imaginable.

There is life outside London although I suppose it's a bit uppity for long established successful provincial firms to think of themselves as blue chip.

PetulaGordino · 26/01/2015 22:03

It's great that your industry (or your part of it depending on what it is) has achieved equality of opportunity Phaedra - that is of course as it should be. So many other industries have a really long way to go and at best are paying lip service to equality. I don't have children but am of an age where people expect you to be thinking about it fairly soon, especially if you are in a longterm relationship or perhaps worse, newly married. I've had a couple of men who own companies say to me in social situations that they would avoid hiring a woman of my age because of their own assumptions about my life plans. Obviously it's nothing compared to the discrimination that some people who actually do have children encounter, but based on my own experience my options have been restricted by other people's assumptions of what women want. (not that I wanted to work for them anyway Wink)

PenguinsandtheTantrumofDoom · 26/01/2015 22:02

Ok. this is an old article and does have a few issues. But 18% female partnership www.theguardian.com/law/2010/oct/29/gender-women. That doesn't sound like equal participation to me? Or are all the lost women just preference?

YonicScrewdriver · 26/01/2015 21:59

Sigh.

PenguinsandtheTantrumofDoom · 26/01/2015 21:57

You're law? Gosh. Your description of the City doesn't match my experience of it.

I would concur that no one would promote a man for being a man. But the rest of it doesn't really chime with my experience.

PhaedraIsMyName · 26/01/2015 21:54

I'm in law. A fairly traditional blue chip firm. But as I've been told on here before law is just an old boys' network and I don't know what I'm talking about.

I suppose I must be imagining all my female partners and partners in other law firms. Many of whom are parents working part time.

Of course we will always promote a mediocre man over a good female employee. That makes business sense.

YonicScrewdriver · 26/01/2015 21:48

I'm not doing a PhD, Phaedra, and nor are many other posters on here.

I am interested in your experiences and in anything you think could carry across from your industry to others.

I know that in my industry, 90% of the people pictured on the websites in lead (not support staff) roles are men and that my sharing with DH rules me out of a number of jobs where an SAHP/DP with very flexible or local job is more or less assumed (or double nanny type situations). There it's not about just who gets the bonus - being able to work late at the drop of a hat is an entry requirement.

creambun2014 · 26/01/2015 21:45

Even though I work I still do night feeds as our youngest is 12 weeks. I do a lor of child related tasks/care. I do help with cleaning when I have chance. I dont ever cook but I didnt when we both worked or before children as I cant really cook. Just because someone works they can still help out

PhaedraIsMyName · 26/01/2015 21:44

Oh I agree penguins but the expressions of incredulity I've had from certain posters do exactly that.

PhaedraIsMyName · 26/01/2015 21:41

He is free to focus on his career - when I work part time, it's in addition to all the house and childcare stuff, not instead of. It's just not worth it

Then sort it out. The remedy is in your own hands. Tell him tasks need to be shared.If women who work outside the home whether ft or pt are being stuck with an unfair share of domestic duties no law, no equal opps unit can solve that for.

There's no need to be a martyr about this.

BallroomWithNoBalls · 26/01/2015 21:37

Lucky you creambun. I think my marriage needs a third member sometimes to do all the shit bits that neither me or DH wants to do, I'm just slightly more willing than he is. So he can do what you do, and focus on his career rather than worrying about inane shite.

PenguinsandtheTantrumofDoom · 26/01/2015 21:34

Phaedra - the issue isn't having a personal experience which differs from others. That is very relevant. But you don't always seem to be willing to recognise that others may have had a different personal experience, and yours doesn't invalidate theirs.

creambun2014 · 26/01/2015 21:32

Why are they not interested in those options though? I returned after a couple of weeks and if isnt because I dont love and enjoy having our children but I just dont want to be at home. I see no reason why we cant have significantly more sahds. I cant be the only woman that feels this way on mn?

It is much easier to work with a sahp. We have done dual working before but I know now I come home and have no cooking, no cleaning and can relax and concentrate on getting ahead at work.

PhaedraIsMyName · 26/01/2015 21:30

You seem to be talking about your industry / profession again Phaedra

As I said. I appreciate that 30 years full time in a sector which used to be male dominated and being a mother and being very successful is completely irrelevant as I'm not writing a PhD.

Funny how no one ever challenges any other poster on this basis.