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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The optional nature of men's lives

411 replies

cailindana · 24/01/2015 12:35

I was talking about this with DH recently and he agreed with much of what I said.

It strikes me that boys and men have very "optional" lives in comparison to girls and women and that this influences their whole approach to life. What I mean is, girls learn pretty early on that their choices will be restricted, that their options will be limited. From only being allowed to wear skirts and then told they mustn't show their knickers (thus removing the option to be active) to suddenly having to deal with periods and curtailing activities due to that, to then contending with the prospect of unwanted pregnancy and thus having restrictions on sexuality to then being told not to walk certain places not to do certain things for fear of being attacked and ultimately being told you "can't have it all" - ie choose work or children.

IMO, women (in general of course, not all) learn very quickly that there are consequences to things, that you can't always have what you want, that sometimes you just have to get on with it and face the fact that everything isn't perfect. I think that influences their approach to so many things in life from housework, to illness, to childrearing. Men on the other hand, always seem to have options open to them and I think that leads to a certain immaturity, a lack of acceptance that sometimes you can't have what you want. I think it has a bearing on how men approach things like fatherhood and the idea that now you don't have any choice but to knuckle down and accept your life is different - so many men seem to want to "opt out" and carry on as if nothing is different, thus leaving women to, as usual, take the hard road.

While I don't think it's right that women often end up carrying the burden I'm not sure it's necessarily a bad thing to have that maturity foisted on you. I think while women do lose out massively in the earlier years, especially when children are young, that maturity and that acceptance stands them in very good stead as they get older and ultimately they reap the rewards. I notice among older friends that women seem to come into their own in their 50s whereas men can't face that their options are now becoming limited and they no longer have the world open to them - hence mid-life crises etc. I think also because men expect options they tend to skirt on the edges of responsibility, never full accepting the hardship of, for example, parenthood, and thus ending up on the fringes as children get older and become true friends and companions. Thus women, who have been the stable guiding force in childhood, mucking in, organising, being the go-to person, reap the rewards of a close relationship with their adult children, whereas men, who focused on work, never really got their hands dirty with parenting, are now coming to retirement and the loss of that source of status but have not really jumped in with both feet in family life and so don't have that either. They are left with very little.

I am not saying the equality that exists is a good thing. What I'm saying I suppose is that while women look on enviously at men continuing their careers and never attending a parents' evening, they might do well to remember that the emotional toil and labour they put into their families is really and truly worth something. Jobs come and go, they give no love or longterm support. But children are for life, and being that person who always knows where the PE kit is is important, is special.

Men are missing out. They just don't realise that until it's too late.

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theendoftheendoftheend · 24/01/2015 13:20

Ummm... I know alot of fathers like that actually cream, just because you don't doesn't mean they've all disappeared Hmm obviously you move in better circles then me. Well done.

creambun2014 · 24/01/2015 13:20

He isnt a nice guy then cailin. A real nice guy wouldnt do that

cailindana · 24/01/2015 13:20

An interesting article in The Guardianabout balance of childcare in families - the research says women do more.

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cailindana · 24/01/2015 13:18

Not among my friendship group unfortunately cream. My best friend's DH is a nice guy but never gets involved in any details. The DH of another good friend refused to take time off to look after the kids when she was suffering mobility issues. The ex-partner of a further friend bunks out of contact whenever he possibly can. The partner of an acquaintance has never once looked after their DD on his own. These are all pretty ordinary men (although the ex is exceptionally dickish). My own father and FIL never engaged in fatherhood, although I accept they are part of a different generation. My DH's boss doesn't even live with his family - they are in a different town and he is here Monday- Friday. I have many more examples. On MN it's very common to see women working SAHMs doing absolutely everything for their children while their partners just work, or even mums who work fulltime having to do all the detailed work of parenting.

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creambun2014 · 24/01/2015 13:13

I dont agree with saying this is what men do when it is down right neglectful parenting. There are men still like this around but they are no longer in the majority as they are seen as old dinosaurs to normal men thankfully.

cailindana · 24/01/2015 13:13

Again that is great, peggy. DH takes the kids out on Saturdays and often comments on how few men are there, or says that the only men are the ones there with women.

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peggyundercrackers · 24/01/2015 13:10

sorry I don't recognise what you say - most men I know have a very involved relationship with their children.

Just yesterday I got a bit of a surprise, it was pouring rain so took DD to an indoor play area - out of the 15 or so adults that were there only 3 were woman, the rest were men. none of the woman were taking part in any activities that were taking place but at least half the men were.

MarshaBrady · 24/01/2015 13:10

In fact the pool is often commandeered by fathers doing the super dad loud parenting thing Wink. That is of course, when I go, dh usually does swimming. Or at the school information sessions asking questions, definitely at the school plays. It does feel like a new wave.

It's great that your dh has stepped up.

OmnipotentQueenOfTheUniverse · 24/01/2015 13:07

Not sure about the parenting thing but what you wrote reminded me of work (paid). So IME men seem to have higher expectations in terms of promotion and money and higher ideas about their own worth while women seem to be more "get what you're given and be grateful" and I think this contributes to the pay gap and not as the fault of women but socialisation which starts young and you touch on in your post. ie about the hard work and you can't always have it your way stuff.

cailindana · 24/01/2015 13:06

He has cream, he's a different man.

He picked up his ideas of fatherhood from his own father who is a "traditional man" ie a total knob, who didn't engage with fatherhood in any practical way at all. He sees that now and has stepped up completely.

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cailindana · 24/01/2015 13:04

That's great Marsha. And I do think that is becoming more common and both women and men will reap the rewards.

As an example of what I mean, when DD was small and a nightmare to look after, DH took over DS's bedtime routine. I found out after 5 months of this going on that he hadn't once brushed DS's teeth in that time. To me that signalled a lack of mental engagement, a lack of recognition that as DS's other parent it was his absolute duty to do things like that. When quizzed on it he couldn't account for his actions though it did emerge that he basically saw those niggly details as my job. He realises now what a knob he was and has changed entirely.

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creambun2014 · 24/01/2015 13:04

Op I would worry that you see this as normal and you are a lot more forgiving than I am. I hope that your dh has changed significantly and nor just doing the absolute basics you describe above.

MarshaBrady · 24/01/2015 13:01

I feel surrounded by very involved fathers. At the school, with their dc at swimming lessons, every where.

They seem to put in a load of effort.

creambun2014 · 24/01/2015 13:01

How did I know this would involved older men? Hmm

cailindana · 24/01/2015 13:01

Star - so were you never in the situation where you didn't walk home alone in the dark for fear of being attacked?

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cailindana · 24/01/2015 13:00

Fair enough Yops. I was drawing on the experience of my DH and of a few older men that I know (my own dad included) but I accept that I can't speak for all men.

It is certainly not the case that all men opt out of fatherhood. I have to say though that my own DH did it, and at least three other fathers I know also did it (and continue to do so).

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creambun2014 · 24/01/2015 12:59

It appears common in mn circles but in real life definitely not. I think many middle class men dont want to be fathers if they act like this.

Taking one or two weeks after birth before returning to work has nothing to do with not engaging in the way you describe. It is just excuses from not nice 'men'

stargirl1701 · 24/01/2015 12:59

I disagree. I wasn't raised as you describe. I have found my options limitless until I had children. That has really exposed a gender divide to me.

MarshaBrady · 24/01/2015 12:58

It was more common a generation ago.

Yops · 24/01/2015 12:58

One thing I have learned from lurking on here is that it's very unwelcome for men to try to speak about the experiences of women - what it must be like, the experiences you have, your perspective on life, how you are treated and the expectations placed upon you simply as a consequence of your gender.

And yet you feel that you have enough insight into the phenomenon of 'being a man' that you are able to sum up a lifetime lived, from childhood to old age. Interesting.

If this is a thought experiment, to prompt discussion, and you are prepared to be told if and when you are wrong, fair enough. I can see the value in that. If this is anything else, may I be the first to say, what a load of bollocks.

theendoftheendoftheend · 24/01/2015 12:57

You've just described my Dfather bless him. I think you make some good points and I can certainly see where are you are coming from.

cailindana · 24/01/2015 12:57

Do you genuinely not know a single man who works long hours and leaves most of the childrearing to the mum?

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cailindana · 24/01/2015 12:57

But isn't it the case in our society cream, that it is so much more acceptable for a man not to get involved in his children's lives than it is for a woman? As in, it really isn't an option for women to switch off (not that they would necessarily want to) because they are the ones who are asked "who's looking after the kids?" when out and about, they are the ones who are expected to take leave after the birth, they are the ones that the school engages with. Whereas it is acceptable for a man to take only a week or two weeks after the birth, to go straight back into working 60 hours a week with a newborn at home, to not engage with the details of weaning (beyond being told what to feed the baby) or potty training (beyond knowing that it's happening) or the first day at school.

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creambun2014 · 24/01/2015 12:56

I do not understand how a man could act like that unless they really didnt want children or they werent nice people. It wouldnt matter to me whether they had changed as what kind of men would act like that in the first place?

creambun2014 · 24/01/2015 12:53

I agree both descriptions sound like complete failures as a parent