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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The optional nature of men's lives

411 replies

cailindana · 24/01/2015 12:35

I was talking about this with DH recently and he agreed with much of what I said.

It strikes me that boys and men have very "optional" lives in comparison to girls and women and that this influences their whole approach to life. What I mean is, girls learn pretty early on that their choices will be restricted, that their options will be limited. From only being allowed to wear skirts and then told they mustn't show their knickers (thus removing the option to be active) to suddenly having to deal with periods and curtailing activities due to that, to then contending with the prospect of unwanted pregnancy and thus having restrictions on sexuality to then being told not to walk certain places not to do certain things for fear of being attacked and ultimately being told you "can't have it all" - ie choose work or children.

IMO, women (in general of course, not all) learn very quickly that there are consequences to things, that you can't always have what you want, that sometimes you just have to get on with it and face the fact that everything isn't perfect. I think that influences their approach to so many things in life from housework, to illness, to childrearing. Men on the other hand, always seem to have options open to them and I think that leads to a certain immaturity, a lack of acceptance that sometimes you can't have what you want. I think it has a bearing on how men approach things like fatherhood and the idea that now you don't have any choice but to knuckle down and accept your life is different - so many men seem to want to "opt out" and carry on as if nothing is different, thus leaving women to, as usual, take the hard road.

While I don't think it's right that women often end up carrying the burden I'm not sure it's necessarily a bad thing to have that maturity foisted on you. I think while women do lose out massively in the earlier years, especially when children are young, that maturity and that acceptance stands them in very good stead as they get older and ultimately they reap the rewards. I notice among older friends that women seem to come into their own in their 50s whereas men can't face that their options are now becoming limited and they no longer have the world open to them - hence mid-life crises etc. I think also because men expect options they tend to skirt on the edges of responsibility, never full accepting the hardship of, for example, parenthood, and thus ending up on the fringes as children get older and become true friends and companions. Thus women, who have been the stable guiding force in childhood, mucking in, organising, being the go-to person, reap the rewards of a close relationship with their adult children, whereas men, who focused on work, never really got their hands dirty with parenting, are now coming to retirement and the loss of that source of status but have not really jumped in with both feet in family life and so don't have that either. They are left with very little.

I am not saying the equality that exists is a good thing. What I'm saying I suppose is that while women look on enviously at men continuing their careers and never attending a parents' evening, they might do well to remember that the emotional toil and labour they put into their families is really and truly worth something. Jobs come and go, they give no love or longterm support. But children are for life, and being that person who always knows where the PE kit is is important, is special.

Men are missing out. They just don't realise that until it's too late.

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cailindana · 24/01/2015 13:58

I hope that is changing though. There seems to be positive indications that it is.

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cailindana · 24/01/2015 13:58

A friend of mine does research in older workers and retirees and she notices that, in the current retiring generation, many men dread retirement - they feel disconnected from their families, unsure about what to do with themselves at home, dreading the loss of status and occupation - while women often look forward to spending more time with their children and grandchildren (including taking on childcare duties) and spending more time on house improvements and hobbies. The trend she's seeing is that men do lose out at that stage of life, because they have thrown themselves so much into work that once it comes to an end they're lost.

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Flatpacker · 24/01/2015 13:52

I have to raise my voice and agree with OP. I circulate in a middle class type environment and I see loads of hands-off fathers. Either explicitly (I'm told the wife rules by the hubby as they put hands in the air). Or, worse in some respects, they are hands-off in a sneaky way. They are always there doing the visual things like shouting at sports day, picking up the crying baby at the dinner party etc but when it comes to: changing nappies, organising xmas, anything to do with clothes, getting up in the night to settle that crying baby etc they are strangely absent.

I do think this comes from a practical side that women just accept they can't waltz around like a fancy-free 20yo.

Do I think this leads to a poorer relationship? Possibly. In general, the kids I see have great relationships with their dads because the dads are more rarely present so are grabbed with glee. And of course, because Great Dad, always present when fun things are going on (but absent for the daily discipline and grind) is just GREAT. Sooo. I think sometimes mum comes off short changed even though she is there with the kids more. Depends on personalities I guess.

Dragonlette · 24/01/2015 13:52

When parents split up it's quite obvious that there's massive inequality. Women are expected to be the main carers, I know that's changing a bit, but in my form at school I have about 15 pupils who live with mum but have eow with dad, that's the norm. So basically those men get 12/14 nights to do whatever they like, whereas the women have only 2 nights a fortnight to please themselves. I do think that the mum then has a closer relationship with their dcs, but it's at the expense of having options until the dcs are old enough to be left alone in the evenings.

almondcakes · 24/01/2015 13:51

Thanks for the info on grandparents. This only goes to show how unfair it is to pay fathers for paternity leave rather than paying the person nominated by the family (more likely to be a grandparent than a father).

As for the topic of the thread... my dad worked long hours while my mum was a SAHM. I value both roles and am close to both parents.

But I do think there is a big problem of single and divorced men being socially isolated. All the funerals I have heard of with no mourners are of men. I do think we need a solution to this isolation - better support between single men?

cailindana · 24/01/2015 13:50

That is the case among many of my friends too Penguins. It's notable that since DH has changed his attitude he has encouraged me to take up hobbies such that I am the one out of the house once a week while he only goes out once in a blue moon. When I've told people about this I've had some strange reactions - some surprise that I go out "so often" (once a week!) while DH doesn't. It seems accepted that a man will continue his hobbies and be given as much time as necessary for them, whereas women have to negotiate and fit around the children.

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PenguinsandtheTantrumofDoom · 24/01/2015 13:46

sorry, that should say "compared to the number of women I know..."

It is also very noticeable that the women I know with time consuming hobbies, the man does too. Yet I know many families where only the man has such interests.

PenguinsandtheTantrumofDoom · 24/01/2015 13:44

Yes, I notice this very much amongst families I know.

One thing I especially notice (it isn't limited to families with a SAHP, all families) is the optional nature of being around in the evening and at weekends. The number of men I know who have time consuming hobbies - like football training twice a week and matches on weekends- compared to the number of men I know who have those types of hobbies is quite astounding. So many seem to treat their presence as optional and assume the availability of utterly flexible wrap-around care (i.e. their partner) to pick up the slack.

I think it's interesting to look at it from the perspective of life time pay off. I don't know about closeness to the children. But what I do definitely notice in my parents and their friends is how much easier women seem to find the transition to retirement compared to men. I would need to ponder more on that bit.

cailindana · 24/01/2015 13:43

I agree Irene that there isn't necessarily a direct correlation between parental involvement and later closeness, although I think in general unless there is a particularly bad relationship most people seek emotional support from their mother - the mother is usually seen as the "reliable" parent.

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Dragonlette · 24/01/2015 13:42

I have a lot of acquaintances who fit those descriptions.

My ex felt completely justified in opting out of our relationship completely when I fell pg accidentally. Wed both made the same decisions leading to that point, although the main responsibility for contraception was mine, NOT my fault it failed. He was able to opt out of anything to do with it in a way I wasn't. His choice was either stick around or don't, my choice was either to keep the baby, with all the physical and financial consequences of that, or have a medical procedure to terminate the pregnancy which may have had a massive impact on my mh and self-worth. He had options that absolved him of any responsibility, I didn't.

He wasn't a particularly nice guy, but he wasn't unusual either amongst the people we knew at the time.

cailindana · 24/01/2015 13:35

Sorry I read those statistics entirely wrong. In 2013 2.1 million women were stay at home mothers, while 227,000 men were stay at home fathers. So 10% of SAHPs are men, which is a tiny fraction.

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IrenetheQuaint · 24/01/2015 13:35

My father was rather like this - pretty normal for the 1980s, as others have said - and we weren't terribly close when I was growing up. But when I became an adult I started realising that we had a lot in common and we now get on very well. Whereas my mother, who loved having needy adoring small children, found it hard when we grew up and didn't really need her any more.

I agree with cailin's general point but don't think there is an automatic correlation between parental engagement with small children and relationship with those children as adults, unfair as it may seem.

TheFriar · 24/01/2015 13:34

I can see loads of fathers like this at my dcs school. I love the ones who organise an put school activity for their dc because they think it's good (think a sport that they like) and then expect their DW to take the child gut all the a etc. BUT will be present if there us a match as this, of course, is that fun part.

I personally think men need a big wake up call (my DH had a similar one than the op's DH). And that women also need a wake up call (is you don't have to accept said behaviour from men and you can keep some opportunities open to you rather than act as if nothing was ever possible, eg a fulfilling job)

MarshaBrady · 24/01/2015 13:32

Perhaps location has something to do with it. Different patterns outside cities, where one parent is more likely to commute the long distance to work.

cailindana · 24/01/2015 13:29

Peggy - in terms of who looks after children it goes - women - grandparents - childcare - men. So men are absolutely at the bottom of the pile in terms of who takes on the bulk of childcare.

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peggyundercrackers · 24/01/2015 13:27

cailindana grandparents are more likely to look after kids that parents because parents work - most grandparents will have retired. most familiesi nowadays need 2 parents working to pay for their lifestyle choices.

MarshaBrady · 24/01/2015 13:27

All the ones I'm talking about are middle class. I often wonder how they turn up to so much stuff tbh

cailindana · 24/01/2015 13:26

My DH genuinely believed he was being a good father because he was following the role models he saw around him. He knows now he wasn't, but it's what he learned and grew up with and it took a wake up call to realise it wasn't right.

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FloraFox · 24/01/2015 13:26

I know what you mean cailin I know loads of men like this. They are not bad people and it's not that they didn't want kids. They are normal men who work long hours and have a wife at home taking care of the entirety of their non-work existence (except for climbing Mount Kilimonjaro or running a marathon, which a surprising number manage to fit into their lives despite said long working hours). Some of them are conspicuously present at Saturday swimming or football but that's about the height of it. Men in that situation definitely don't feel they have to make choice between career and fatherhood.

These men are mostly middle class but I also know working class men who are similar. IME though more working class men pitch in nowadays as their wives are working too, unless they are arses.

cailindana · 24/01/2015 13:25

He's pretty ordinary among the men I know - works hard, kind, loving etc. but ask him where the kids' shoes are and he doesn't know.

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creambun2014 · 24/01/2015 13:23

Your best friends dh

theendoftheendoftheend · 24/01/2015 13:22

And you really aren't qualified to tell the OP who amongst her aquaintances are, or are not, nice guys. Would you like to step down off your pedestal now?

MarshaBrady · 24/01/2015 13:22

I agree that there's a huge discrepancy between sahms and sahds

cailindana · 24/01/2015 13:22

Who isn't a nice guy?

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cailindana · 24/01/2015 13:21

Grandparents are twice as likely to look after children as fathers.
In 2012 there were 6,000 SAHDs and 44,000 SAHMs. That is a huge difference.

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