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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The optional nature of men's lives

411 replies

cailindana · 24/01/2015 12:35

I was talking about this with DH recently and he agreed with much of what I said.

It strikes me that boys and men have very "optional" lives in comparison to girls and women and that this influences their whole approach to life. What I mean is, girls learn pretty early on that their choices will be restricted, that their options will be limited. From only being allowed to wear skirts and then told they mustn't show their knickers (thus removing the option to be active) to suddenly having to deal with periods and curtailing activities due to that, to then contending with the prospect of unwanted pregnancy and thus having restrictions on sexuality to then being told not to walk certain places not to do certain things for fear of being attacked and ultimately being told you "can't have it all" - ie choose work or children.

IMO, women (in general of course, not all) learn very quickly that there are consequences to things, that you can't always have what you want, that sometimes you just have to get on with it and face the fact that everything isn't perfect. I think that influences their approach to so many things in life from housework, to illness, to childrearing. Men on the other hand, always seem to have options open to them and I think that leads to a certain immaturity, a lack of acceptance that sometimes you can't have what you want. I think it has a bearing on how men approach things like fatherhood and the idea that now you don't have any choice but to knuckle down and accept your life is different - so many men seem to want to "opt out" and carry on as if nothing is different, thus leaving women to, as usual, take the hard road.

While I don't think it's right that women often end up carrying the burden I'm not sure it's necessarily a bad thing to have that maturity foisted on you. I think while women do lose out massively in the earlier years, especially when children are young, that maturity and that acceptance stands them in very good stead as they get older and ultimately they reap the rewards. I notice among older friends that women seem to come into their own in their 50s whereas men can't face that their options are now becoming limited and they no longer have the world open to them - hence mid-life crises etc. I think also because men expect options they tend to skirt on the edges of responsibility, never full accepting the hardship of, for example, parenthood, and thus ending up on the fringes as children get older and become true friends and companions. Thus women, who have been the stable guiding force in childhood, mucking in, organising, being the go-to person, reap the rewards of a close relationship with their adult children, whereas men, who focused on work, never really got their hands dirty with parenting, are now coming to retirement and the loss of that source of status but have not really jumped in with both feet in family life and so don't have that either. They are left with very little.

I am not saying the equality that exists is a good thing. What I'm saying I suppose is that while women look on enviously at men continuing their careers and never attending a parents' evening, they might do well to remember that the emotional toil and labour they put into their families is really and truly worth something. Jobs come and go, they give no love or longterm support. But children are for life, and being that person who always knows where the PE kit is is important, is special.

Men are missing out. They just don't realise that until it's too late.

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creambun2014 · 24/01/2015 14:31

I went back to work at two weeks twice and I will admit dh does the vast majority of the cooking and cleaning. I do however still do night feeds and take the children out and know everything about their lives. There is no excuse for a man not to regardless of if he works.

cailindana · 24/01/2015 14:30

I agree Queen. The whole notion that by being in power you are "aping men" is entirely anti-feminist in my view. You are not aping anyone, you are just doing what you want to do and adding your voice to the ones that shape the world. The fact is that more women do need to be part of the powers that shape the world, otherwise we will continue to be sidelined. I would argue, Bonsoir, that the system, which expects workers, especially those in power, to work long hours and be away from their families, is wrong, for both women and men. I have absolutely nothing against anyone being a SAHP - I was for a while and now I work very part time, so am a SAHP for much of the week. I don't consider myself or any other woman or man who stays at home with children a failure.

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OmnipotentQueenOfTheUniverse · 24/01/2015 14:26

But I'd rather work full-time because I enjoy it.

That's not "aping" that's being in the happy position of choosing what i want to do so hurrah for feminism and where it's got us so far + my fortunate personal circumstances...

Nothing to do with wanting to be a man (be like a man?).

DH would like to be at home with the kids. Maybe he secretly wants to be a woman.

God I hate gender roles.

OmnipotentQueenOfTheUniverse · 24/01/2015 14:25

But if I like to do things, or am interested in things, that are deemed by society to be "masculine", then does that mean I am aping men, or just being myself?

I would say surely that society deems what things the sexes do and want to do and are good at and this is restrictive. Men who get involved more in childcare aren't deemed to be "aping women" are they? Although sometimes and by some people that choice is viewed as "odd" which is something that needs to change.

I don't get the "aping men" idea. Not when it comes to things like work and leisure which are all constructed really.

almondcakes · 24/01/2015 14:23

I don't see a contradiction between almost all of what Bonsoir is saying and feminism.

Yes, there is a need for more femalesin politics, because they make better decisions for women (according to UN research) and children. But those women should be drawn from groups like former SAHMs and carers, not all business
people.

But most people in the workplace do ordinary jobs and many women would prefer to be with their kids.

There is a lack of positive representations of SAHMs in the media.

cailindana · 24/01/2015 14:18

Could you develop that a bit Yops? I think I understand what you mean but I'd be interested to hear more.

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cailindana · 24/01/2015 14:17

Who says that women are failing if they don't ape men?

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cailindana · 24/01/2015 14:16

I'm confused though Bonsoir - if women have more choices than men then why is feminism needed?

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Bonsoir · 24/01/2015 14:15

No. But a movement that suggests that they are failing as human beings if they don't want to do so is aping men.

Yops · 24/01/2015 14:15

Hmm. Some valid points in here. And also some odd criticisms. Working long hours, you say? Possibly dirty, hazardous work? Possibly antisocial hours? Possibly putting in more hours than strictly necessary, in order to keep that job, because that is what companies expect? Possibly working himself into ill-health or an early grave?

And putting up shelves? The bastards.....

Of course, some men are arseholes. Some are selfish. Some are stupid. Some are mean. But I think that you have to be aware that this is MN, and this is FWR. And much as it may not be a popular view, there are two sides to most situations.

Bonsoir · 24/01/2015 14:15

Feminism has given me fantastic opportunities and will continue to do so. And gives fantastic opportunities to my DD.

The one thing I will fight to the last is a situation where women are denied those choices and opportunities.

cailindana · 24/01/2015 14:14

So if women run countries, or have economic power they're aping men?

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Bonsoir · 24/01/2015 14:13

I think feminism is about letting women make the best of their lives and have choices. Not about trying to straitjacket women into aping men.

cailindana · 24/01/2015 14:12

I take it you don't see a need for feminism Bonsoir?

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Bonsoir · 24/01/2015 14:12

Yes of course!

Not that being a SAHM is any kind of perfection. Just that the other options are not better.

I am in my late 40s and surrounded by ex-high flying career women who have thrown in the towel and cursing themselves about why they bothered self-flagelating at the office for so long when life is so much better outside it.

cailindana · 24/01/2015 14:12

Museumum - Men are far more likely than women to be assaulted on the street. Is that reflected in the advice given by the police about young people keeping themselves safe?

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cailindana · 24/01/2015 14:10

And many thousands more women opt to be SAHPs than men also just because they want it?

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Bonsoir · 24/01/2015 14:10

Yup!

museumum · 24/01/2015 14:10

Going back to your op I do agree that girls / young women in their late teens and early 20s appear so much more mature than boys / young men of the same age. I wonder if girls are made more aware earlier if "the consequences" or if our boys are babied more. We claim as a society to protect girls more but I wonder if we do....

It is interesting.

cailindana · 24/01/2015 14:09

Oh ok, so they just don't want it?

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Bonsoir · 24/01/2015 14:09

Because those activities require single-minded dedication and therefore giving up all sorts of other (rather nice) things.

Most women are sensible and realize variety is the spice of life!

cailindana · 24/01/2015 14:07

I'm curious Bonsoir, given that women have so many options, why you think they're opting not to be world leaders, MPs, heads of companies, etc?

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cailindana · 24/01/2015 14:06

I lost the rag at DH about that when DS was a baby Penguin. And he seemed to get it at the time. But the DD came along and he just forgot it all again. One evening I wanted to clear out the dining room. The front door is in the dining room and I had to bring rubbish out to the bin so I asked DH to look after the kids (note I had to ask, even though it was housework I was doing, not sitting on my arse, as he was) to make sure they didn't go out the door. He agreed, I went to the bin, only to turn around and find a just-walking DD about to hurl herself out the front door. Even when I was doing housework, and had specifically asked him to look after them, he assumed he could just leave them to me. I lost it again. It still took a good long while for him to get after that that small children need looking after and I am not going to do it 24/7 while he dips in and out as it suits him.

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Bonsoir · 24/01/2015 14:04

I disagree very strongly with the OP. I have always felt that, as a woman, I had many more life options than the boys and men around me. I could wear my hair long or short, wear a skirt or trousers, play with cars or dolls, study any subject I liked and envisage any life I chose...

My DP is very envious of all the things I have been able to do in life and is acutely aware that DD has more opportunities than the DSSs do.

PenguinsandtheTantrumofDoom · 24/01/2015 14:01

On the 'babies at dinner parties' thing, what I often notice in men is a delineation. There is family time, where they will pick up the baby. There is 'work time'. Then there are lots of other sorts of time. Hobbies. DIY time. etc. Women are more of a messy blur.

See also the way many perfectly lovely men will wander off and start a job totally incompatible with watching the kids - like putting up shelves - on the assumption that, because their partner is in the house, they aren't 'on duty'.

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