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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The optional nature of men's lives

411 replies

cailindana · 24/01/2015 12:35

I was talking about this with DH recently and he agreed with much of what I said.

It strikes me that boys and men have very "optional" lives in comparison to girls and women and that this influences their whole approach to life. What I mean is, girls learn pretty early on that their choices will be restricted, that their options will be limited. From only being allowed to wear skirts and then told they mustn't show their knickers (thus removing the option to be active) to suddenly having to deal with periods and curtailing activities due to that, to then contending with the prospect of unwanted pregnancy and thus having restrictions on sexuality to then being told not to walk certain places not to do certain things for fear of being attacked and ultimately being told you "can't have it all" - ie choose work or children.

IMO, women (in general of course, not all) learn very quickly that there are consequences to things, that you can't always have what you want, that sometimes you just have to get on with it and face the fact that everything isn't perfect. I think that influences their approach to so many things in life from housework, to illness, to childrearing. Men on the other hand, always seem to have options open to them and I think that leads to a certain immaturity, a lack of acceptance that sometimes you can't have what you want. I think it has a bearing on how men approach things like fatherhood and the idea that now you don't have any choice but to knuckle down and accept your life is different - so many men seem to want to "opt out" and carry on as if nothing is different, thus leaving women to, as usual, take the hard road.

While I don't think it's right that women often end up carrying the burden I'm not sure it's necessarily a bad thing to have that maturity foisted on you. I think while women do lose out massively in the earlier years, especially when children are young, that maturity and that acceptance stands them in very good stead as they get older and ultimately they reap the rewards. I notice among older friends that women seem to come into their own in their 50s whereas men can't face that their options are now becoming limited and they no longer have the world open to them - hence mid-life crises etc. I think also because men expect options they tend to skirt on the edges of responsibility, never full accepting the hardship of, for example, parenthood, and thus ending up on the fringes as children get older and become true friends and companions. Thus women, who have been the stable guiding force in childhood, mucking in, organising, being the go-to person, reap the rewards of a close relationship with their adult children, whereas men, who focused on work, never really got their hands dirty with parenting, are now coming to retirement and the loss of that source of status but have not really jumped in with both feet in family life and so don't have that either. They are left with very little.

I am not saying the equality that exists is a good thing. What I'm saying I suppose is that while women look on enviously at men continuing their careers and never attending a parents' evening, they might do well to remember that the emotional toil and labour they put into their families is really and truly worth something. Jobs come and go, they give no love or longterm support. But children are for life, and being that person who always knows where the PE kit is is important, is special.

Men are missing out. They just don't realise that until it's too late.

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PetulaGordino · 24/01/2015 15:35

That made no sense

"Default female now that your mother isn't there"

PetulaGordino · 24/01/2015 15:35

Oh dear Jackie - and do you feel as though you ought to be taking on those responsibilities that he can't handle, as default female no that you're mother isn't there? (I hope not, but I think it can often happen)

Jackieharris · 24/01/2015 15:31

That is totally my DF. He's in financial trouble now as he just expects money to keep flowing in and him to just keep spending it. He won't do the work involved. It's very frustrating for the rest of us!

PetulaGordino · 24/01/2015 15:31

Cailin I expect my dad feels that way too. He isn't very good with extreme emotion, so of course mum was responsible for the emotional wellbeing of the family, but it comes more "naturally" to her apparently - but is that the case? If one parent refuses to take on one aspect of parenting then the other has to take that up unless they have no sense of responsibility. And of course that is what you see on many threads on here "if I don't do it it doesn't get done" - it's optional for many men but not for women

cailindana · 24/01/2015 15:28

Something I said to my DH Jackie, and he agreed with, is that the optional thing is actually a disadvantage in the long run. If you're never actually forced or expected to engage with the hard parts you just won't - we all choose the easy life. But then you just don't learn how to deal with the slings and arrows of life, you are constantly skirting around avoiding things. If the person you delegate responsibility to then leaves, you're lost. Or if your structure, ie work, ends you're at a loose end - you simply haven't engaged with life enough to make your own way.

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LightningOnlyStrikesOnce · 24/01/2015 15:27

Strong links into socially-expected and required work patterns then aren't there. I've just been saying elsewhere that the whole work culture is changing, needs to change, under economic factors as well. Convergence of memes Smile.

PetulaGordino · 24/01/2015 15:27

I actually find it very hard to say these things about my dad, because he is and always was a kind, generous, warm father who was involved when he wasn't on-call and cared deeply and my instinct is to defend that to the hilt. But I can't ignore how much he just expected my mother to just take on and fit her life around his and the children, including opting out of those aspects of parenting that he didn't like.

Jackieharris · 24/01/2015 15:25

A lot of this applies to my DF. He did do some cooking and basic housework but didn't organise my birthday parties or things like that.

My parents got divorced after 27 years and yes my mum has now bloomed whereas my DF has floundered.

cailindana · 24/01/2015 15:24

Interestingly Petula, my DH said he genuinely believed childcare was easier for me because I was a woman. I wonder how many other men believe that - ie I can't do mornings because it's too hard but you can because you're a woman and it's easier for you. I've often seen situations where men claim the SAHM does nothing all week but then they refuse to do childcare at the weekend as it's "too hard." How can it be "nothing" all week but "too hard" at the weekend? It makes no sense.

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cailindana · 24/01/2015 15:22

My father didn't work for years and years but he still took no responsibility for the nitty gritty of childcare - he never once in my entire childhood took me to the doctor. My mum worked fulltime and she still did all laundry, all appointments, all school stuff. He was a particularly bad case though.

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PetulaGordino · 24/01/2015 15:21

My dad's rationale re leaving for work early to avoid getting ready for school stresses was that he had a long day at work and didn't want I arrive stressed. But it was ok for mum to arrive at work upset and stressed following three separate tantrums from two children before 8am and then see her patients all day

scallopsrgreat · 24/01/2015 15:19

Oh my father would have said he was a good father too. But he devolved pretty much all responsibility on to my mother.

scallopsrgreat · 24/01/2015 15:18

The courts bend over backwards to accommodate children seeing their fathers, yet still a sizeable chunk of them choose not to. The problem is not women refusing them access.

cailindana · 24/01/2015 15:15

My DH was absolutely convinced he was a good father. He now thinks he was beyond rubbish and, while he does feel ashamed of it, he has thanked me on numerous occasions for showing him what true parenting is as he feels a lot happier now that he just mucks in. He reckons it was actually more stressful trying to avoid things.

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scallopsrgreat · 24/01/2015 15:13

You know, all these men I am talking about would say they are fully involved in their children's lives. But they aren't. They can walk away from the bits they don't want to do.

PetulaGordino · 24/01/2015 15:11

Dp's brother was born in the 1990s, when his dad was refusing to change nappies. My grandfather in the 1950s was one of those rare men at that time who did change nappies and do bath times and cooking.

cailindana · 24/01/2015 15:10

I don't think single mothers are a "problem" at all. What I was pointing out is that fingers are pointed at single mothers as though they are a "problem" when nothing at all is said about the "problem" of men who have children and never see them or pay a penny towards them. I agree there are situations where it is absolutely the right thing for the father not to have any involvement - especially when there's abuse - but I would disagree with any notion that a woman should be able to choose to cut a father out of a child's life if he is willing and able to be involved.

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almondcakes · 24/01/2015 15:09

A hobby is not equivalent to childcare CD! Mothers providing childcare need flexible working as a priorty in a way that people with hobbies do not.

JugglingFromHereToThere · 24/01/2015 15:08

"Because for men fatherhood is optional even when the children already exist"

What a great sentence - sums up a lot of things!

funnyossity · 24/01/2015 15:07

In the 1950s it would have been rare for a Dad to change a nappy. My point is that beyond the baby months which as I have said have changed, the Dads I knew where fully involved in their kids lives. The distant paterfamilias was also a product of class.

Then again I am aware of the "dog whistle" signs of the dead beat dad type in the area I grew up in, less easy for me to spot and avoid the losers when they wear (to me) the uniform of middle-classness.

almondcakes · 24/01/2015 15:06

Maybe some of those single motherschose that, and don't want to share care with a father. Which would put you and the Mail on the same side, assuming in one way or another that the 'problem' of single mothers is one to be resolved through involvement of a father, rather than supporting alternative models to man plus woman plus kids is a family.

scallopsrgreat · 24/01/2015 15:06

God I know loads of fathers who opt out. Most of my friends partners in fact. Many of the men at work. It is the little things, not the huge walking away things. Just like Petula describes her father doing. Little thing for him to opt out of, huge thing for his wife to have to cope with that every morning knowing her partner didn't care.

Mind you when it comes to bigger things too, men have much greater options to walk away as seen by figures from the CSA where something like 40% of fathers paying CSA have no contact with their children. So it maybe a minority but it is a sizeable minority. Personally don't think it is a minority when you look at the entire continuum.

It is much easier for men to opt out. They are less judged for it, it is minimised and often not even noticed or accepted.

And women having more choices about clothing or hairstyles? Why do you think that is? And what does that actually give us? Power, status, respect?

cailindana · 24/01/2015 15:03

Perhaps a private life is a better word than family life almond - what I mean is an acceptance that all workers have a life outside of work, be that involving children, elderly parents, pets, volunteering or a hobby.

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cailindana · 24/01/2015 15:01

That's a good example of what I mean life. An extreme version of that is how villified single mothers are. It's bizarre - the DM and their ilk target and shame the people who are there day in, day out doing all the donkey work and make no reference whatsoever to the fathers out there who have simply fucked off and never see their children. Because for men, fatherhood is optional even when the children already exist.

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almondcakes · 24/01/2015 14:59

I don't think either family life or paid employment should be essential for everyone to create equal treatment. Not everyone has or wants children. Not every family has a father. Not every couple wants to split work and childcare 50/50.

Society should offer flexible working and people returning after being a SAHP or carer even if most of those needing that are women.

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