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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The optional nature of men's lives

411 replies

cailindana · 24/01/2015 12:35

I was talking about this with DH recently and he agreed with much of what I said.

It strikes me that boys and men have very "optional" lives in comparison to girls and women and that this influences their whole approach to life. What I mean is, girls learn pretty early on that their choices will be restricted, that their options will be limited. From only being allowed to wear skirts and then told they mustn't show their knickers (thus removing the option to be active) to suddenly having to deal with periods and curtailing activities due to that, to then contending with the prospect of unwanted pregnancy and thus having restrictions on sexuality to then being told not to walk certain places not to do certain things for fear of being attacked and ultimately being told you "can't have it all" - ie choose work or children.

IMO, women (in general of course, not all) learn very quickly that there are consequences to things, that you can't always have what you want, that sometimes you just have to get on with it and face the fact that everything isn't perfect. I think that influences their approach to so many things in life from housework, to illness, to childrearing. Men on the other hand, always seem to have options open to them and I think that leads to a certain immaturity, a lack of acceptance that sometimes you can't have what you want. I think it has a bearing on how men approach things like fatherhood and the idea that now you don't have any choice but to knuckle down and accept your life is different - so many men seem to want to "opt out" and carry on as if nothing is different, thus leaving women to, as usual, take the hard road.

While I don't think it's right that women often end up carrying the burden I'm not sure it's necessarily a bad thing to have that maturity foisted on you. I think while women do lose out massively in the earlier years, especially when children are young, that maturity and that acceptance stands them in very good stead as they get older and ultimately they reap the rewards. I notice among older friends that women seem to come into their own in their 50s whereas men can't face that their options are now becoming limited and they no longer have the world open to them - hence mid-life crises etc. I think also because men expect options they tend to skirt on the edges of responsibility, never full accepting the hardship of, for example, parenthood, and thus ending up on the fringes as children get older and become true friends and companions. Thus women, who have been the stable guiding force in childhood, mucking in, organising, being the go-to person, reap the rewards of a close relationship with their adult children, whereas men, who focused on work, never really got their hands dirty with parenting, are now coming to retirement and the loss of that source of status but have not really jumped in with both feet in family life and so don't have that either. They are left with very little.

I am not saying the equality that exists is a good thing. What I'm saying I suppose is that while women look on enviously at men continuing their careers and never attending a parents' evening, they might do well to remember that the emotional toil and labour they put into their families is really and truly worth something. Jobs come and go, they give no love or longterm support. But children are for life, and being that person who always knows where the PE kit is is important, is special.

Men are missing out. They just don't realise that until it's too late.

OP posts:
PhaedraIsMyName · 25/01/2015 13:50

By making up lists of things they can't do because somebody tells them they can't ( not sure who, I was born in 1960 and don't recall anyone telling me I couldn't do things just because I'm a women) and then apparently just accepting it.

Your point about which parent works/ which doesn't is completely irrelevant since unless one is very wealthy, money has to be earned. It's also rather offensive to women (and indeed men) who work full time and have children.

cailindana · 25/01/2015 13:36

Phaedra what situation do women perpetuate?
I already said in my previous post but I will say it again that I mentioned those stats because they show that far far more women provide fulltime childcare than men. It is relevant because we are talking, in part, about how much childcare responsibility men take on.

OP posts:
PhaedraIsMyName · 25/01/2015 13:28

The thing is though, in some ways, women do perpetuate that situation too

I agree.

TheFriar · 25/01/2015 13:23

Our secondary is 50/50 with either trousers or very short and tight skirts (ie the image of the 'attractive and feminine sexy outfit).
Nothing on between.

TheFriar · 25/01/2015 13:21

Yes primary school. Which I think is an essential as this is the time when parents are teaching their dcs what is 'expected'.

I'm finding that often, after a phase of rebellion as teenager/young adults, this is where people settle as an adult/a parent because 'it feels right'.

MarshaBrady · 25/01/2015 13:20

It's a good point that the stats are not really relevant to the original op about fathers not being involved.

They are two different things.

PenguinsandtheTantrumofDoom · 25/01/2015 13:19

On the primary, yes I would agree. Weird how it happens in school but far less so with normal clothing

PhaedraIsMyName · 25/01/2015 13:19

You'll see in a later post that I got those stats wrong Phaedra. It's 2.1 million SAHMs and 227,000 SAHDs. My point about there being a massive difference was that far more women than men provide fulltime childcare

I realised your stats were wrong . Still not sure what the relevance is.

To me, Britain has this weird time-warp thing where girls are still expected to wear skirts, and people are hush hush and embarrassed about education on sexuality, periods, tampons and contraceptives

I'm over 50 - this is describing a world I live in.

PenguinsandtheTantrumofDoom · 25/01/2015 13:17

Are you talking primary there? I would say 75%of girls at the local secondary wear trousers.

TheFriar · 25/01/2015 13:16

I'm seeing that about dresses fir girls. Comments from mums (!!) that her dd isn't girly enough and doesn't want to wear skirts for example.
Or the fact that about 70% of the girls at my dcs school are in dresses or skirts even though it's snowing and they must be freezing.

You will very rarely see a girl always wearing trousers too. Even the most 'tomboys' of the lot.

The thing is, when you are used to a system, it's very hard to see that sort if thing because they are normal. But it will jump out to a foreigner.

PenguinsandtheTantrumofDoom · 25/01/2015 13:00

TheFriar - That may be the case, but Nimpy hasn't expanded her own point about clothes and periods to explain how she thinks it relates to men abdicating responsibility. I totally accept that yoru explanation is how you'd link the two, but tbh I don't recognise her description of British attitudes to dress that much and I am not sure that dress is actually a particularly central element to a 'know your place' culture. I was just interested if she wanted to take the discussion forward. It's an interesting one.

There is an article in the Times today about how more dads drop kids at school than mums. I have some serious issues with it and think it links into this idea of 'performance' parenting, but annoyingly it seems the actual research hasn't been published yet.

TheFriar · 25/01/2015 12:57

The thing is though, in some ways, women do perpetuate that situation too.
In the example of the OP, if she hadn't been happy to reject the system and push her DH to have a more active role, it would never have happened.
Why is there so few women happy to do so and challenge the status quo?
From the threads on here and talk in RL, few women can even imagine it's possible. They prefer to look for ways to make the system more bearable instead wo asking any real change from their DP.

TheFriar · 25/01/2015 12:52

apolcalypse I can relate to your story too. I felt the same about my dad, that I really wanted a stronger relationship with him than I had. And I was 'lucky' enough that he was taking me to school and we had an hour commuting together (different country) so we had that time to talk. Otherwise, I would have never talked to him :(

TheFriar · 25/01/2015 12:45

penguin what it shows is that attitude towards women, incl the 'you should know your place' and the restrictions placed on women isn't universal but part of the British culture.
As a non British myself, I despair at what I hear around me. Teachers telling me girls can't do maths for example.
The clear separation between boys and girls. In their activities but even on our secondary school leaflets, you rarely see a photo of a group of boys and girls mixed up.
And the mums, who are nurses etc telling me they avoid any conversation with their dcs about puberty, periods and erections (so boys caring on thinking that girl stuff is [vomit emoticon] and still gave no ideas what it is about. Same the other way around)
All that create a system where boys and girls are taught that 1- they are intrinsically different and 2- that they can't possibly be together and comfortable (maybe also the reason why men and women tend to socialise separately??).

ApocalypseThen · 25/01/2015 12:12

Also, to add, something further I've noticed is when a child does something that disappoints the parents. I've seen this a few times as an adult. The father is free to huff and puff and make all kinds of overblown statements about child x being dead to them, secure in the knowledge that mam us there quietly maintaining the relationship. So dad vents his outrage and once he gets over himself, he's lost nothing because of the work mam did in the interim.

cailindana · 25/01/2015 11:54

Were the boys given self defence classes Nimby?

OP posts:
cailindana · 25/01/2015 11:51

I grew up in Ireland and the time warp effect came from the Catholic Church and its hatred of women.

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PenguinsandtheTantrumofDoom · 25/01/2015 11:50

Sorry Nimpy, that's an interesting perspective (though I'm not sure I agree with all your characterisation of the UK), but I'm not getting the link to the OP and the discussion about the 'optional' nature of many men's lives Confused

ApocalypseThen · 25/01/2015 11:50

My dad was pretty good for the times we lived in, but if something had happened to mam, he would have been all but useless. It was her tireless work and energy that really kept the show on the road, but she never got the credit she deserved. She managed the home, she managed us kids and she managed her job.

My dad is fully retired now, my mum is part time and they care for my nephew. After a few months of being on his own for a few hours with a baby most days, my dad remarked to me that he had had no idea of how hard the women work.

The sad part is that he now has the relationship with my nephew that my brother craved with him, but could never have.

NimpyWWindowmash · 25/01/2015 11:45

another thing we routinely got in school, as part of our PE, was a serious self-defence course for girls. No clever judo throws, but how to break someone's nose and blind them in one hand movement, how to hurt someone if they grab you from behind, how to twist and pull a man's balls for maximum debilitation, basically fighting nasty but effectively. We were never taught to be helpless.

NimpyWWindowmash · 25/01/2015 11:41

I sort of get what you mean, OP, but part of it is (thankfully) outdated.

Part of it is this funny British time warp thing though. I grew up in Scandinavia, and we and no school uniform, I wore trousers, I played with boys and girls as equals until about 12, when the boy-girl relationships and friendships become a bit more complicated.

I never had to wear skirts at school, and if I and a daughter in the UK, I would have FOUGHT and demanded for ehr to eb allowed to wear trousers to school. I think more primaries accept this now.

As to periods and sex, the invention of the tampon and the pill have given women my generation more freedom that any other invention.

As a teen and in my 20s I would occasionally dress "manly" (in men's jeans and biker jacket) or "girly" (tiny Kookai dresses), but I never expected (or experienced) bad reactions to either.

To me, Britain has this weird time-warp thing where girls are still expected to wear skirts, and people are hush hush and embarrassed about education on sexuality, periods, tampons and contraceptives.

Then again, on MN I find most women have similar attitudes to the Northern Europeans about gender.

....so, where does this time-warp thing come from, and who (if anyone) imposes it?!

creambun2014 · 25/01/2015 11:31

It is more difficult if both want to work. We were lucky as with the first 2 as they were in nursery from 8-6 from babies. It is difficult there isnt more childcare support for families.

cailindana · 25/01/2015 11:23

It was purely circumstance cream. When I went on ML both our jobs were short term but then DH got a permanent job in another city so we moved and I had no job. In the end I was a SAHM for a year and a half and then I started working part time. When I wanted to increase my hours DH was very unsupportive. It precipitated a lot of problems that almost split us up.

OP posts:
creambun2014 · 25/01/2015 10:52

Alleycat - I always wonder if lots of women say they have an urge to raise them as they are put under pressure by society to say they want to. With my first I did hear the whole 'ooh you will change your priorities when you have a baby' when discussing work and study goals I would like to achieve. I didnt understand that then and I still dont understand it a few children on. I was just having children not changing the person I am or the interests I have.

Jackieharris · 25/01/2015 10:47

You only need to read a few mn threads to see how common opt out fathering is.

If you don't have any in your circle then fine but that isn't representative of the rest of the population.

Looking back I took mat leave withDc2 when really it should have been dp. He earned less it would have made more sense. The decision was purely based on stereotypes and has cost six figures in terms of my destroyed career.