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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Who to vote for as a feminist

419 replies

WorkingBling · 20/01/2015 11:27

I am really struggling ahead of the elections. I have decided that commitment to feminist principals needs to be a strong part of my voting decision making process. But I honestly am not sure this helps.

Lib dems have terrible track record and while I like nick's wife, I can't vote for a party where there's only one woman I am impressed by.

Instinctively i am more of a labour supporter but with the exception of Harriet H I honestly feel underwhelmed by their female representation and view on women.

This leaves the conservatives. There are a number of woman in the party who impress me. But Dave doesn't strike me as a man who really believes in feminist principals.

Help please. All you lovely informed women must have some thoughts.

OP posts:
PhaedraIsMyName · 24/01/2015 17:50

was just wondering what you non-green voters think your party will do to be actively trying to protect women working as prostitutes or trafficking?

On trafficking? I hope they would enforce the existing law to the utmost.

On women working as prostitutes? I don't honestly care much beyond seeking to enforce the existing criminal law which is intended to protect all of us.

I am opposed to any measures which might facilitate prostitution.

PuffinsAreFictitious · 24/01/2015 17:39

Flora... are they really talking about decriminalisation as opposed to regulation? Not that either is better than the other when it comes to harm reduction of course, but is that really where they're heading? Maybe Rachel Moran and Rebecca Mott should go and talk to them, give them a small taster of how life really goes as a prostituted woman.

PetulaGordino · 24/01/2015 17:25

Interestingly I understand (though I don't know where from so it may not be true) Caroline Lucas is against her party's stance on prostitution

FloraFox · 24/01/2015 17:20

It would be odd behaviour if I was a pimp or punter to be pointing out that the Greens' stance on prostitution is a reason for feminists not to vote for them. So, no, I'm not.

Laura Lee spoke at the NI Assembly - she is not from NI, she is from the Republic and now lives in Scotland. She was there to represent the International Union of Sex Workers. She confirmed that pimps are members of IUSW and later confirmed it has 10 members, she didn't say how many were pimps.

It's very uncommon for normal men to know about people like Laura Lee but she is extremely well known among that group of men who seem to think women's rights to be prostituted as sex chattels requires them to read everything and tell women how important this issue is for women.

As far as the Greens are concerned, according to their policy page, they consider prostitution to be a matter of "rights and responsibilities". Their general statement of principles talks about individual rights as well as responsibilities in how those rights are exercised.

They make this statement:

It is humankind's responsibility to carry out only activities that enhance or maintain the quality, variety, diversity, integrity and wholesomeness of human society and the life support system. Those activities which are exploitative, or threaten either the well-being of others, society, the life support system or the future must be avoided.

Which I would agree with. However, in their section on prostitution, they say:

the Green Party believes that attempting to stop the sex industry by using prohibitive laws is neither desirable nor realistic.

They are very clear that stopping the sex industry is not desirable.

They also say:

Criminalisation of many parts of the sex industry leaves those working within it in a vulnerable position. They are often unable to turn to the law for help in cases where their rights are violated, and instead fall prey to criminal gangs and pimps.

They are clear that they view the source of the harm as being criminalisation completely ignoring the source of the harm as the punters and pimps who exploit the women and inflict violence.

Their discussion on harm and exploitation comes later with some wooly minded acknowledgement of the harm and exploitation which includes limited regulation only of brothels while leaving other aspects of prostitution unregulated.

policy.greenparty.org.uk/rr.html

I'm also not sure about their approach to pornography. They say in the policy page that pornography should be permitted, no mention of regulation. How is that consistent with their opposition to page 3.

These are the sorts of reasons I would not vote for them. I can't see a coherent feminist approach to this issue, it seems mostly a libertarian approach.

SkaterGrrrrl · 24/01/2015 17:05
fayyive · 24/01/2015 15:47

"when your whole stance of upholding the availability of women as sex chattels for men is deeply offensive to me"

Did you even read my earlier posts which compare the Nordic model to decriminalisation?

The Green party's stance on prostitution (which I agree with) is because they think that is the system which will be safest and in the best interests for those in prostitution (because reasons discussed earlier in this thread).

fayyive · 24/01/2015 15:30

No I'm not a punter or pimp. Are you?

The quote is from Carina Edlund from Sweden, the site I linked to containing her quote is a blog by Laura Lee from NI.

Both these women sell sexual services, they are not pimps.

FloraFox · 24/01/2015 12:10

fayyive MNHQ have clarified that asking someone if they are a punter is not against the guidelines and have asked me to post again with the clarification of why I am asking.

You posted a link from a site created by a woman in prostitution who spoke to the NI government on behalf of an organisation which was formed and funded by and represents pimps.

We have often asked men on prostitution threads if they are punters and a number of them have said they are. We have had interesting discussions with them which illuminate some of their thinking about their entitlement to buy women for sex. Some were shocking including one man who recounted a time a young woman cried as it was her first time and how moved he was and pleased he could help her financially. And of course he still fucked her.

Men come onto prostitution threads to push lies generated by pimps while claiming they are primarily interested in women's welfare, therefore it is relevant to ask someone pushing these lies if they are punters. Even if you are not a punter, if you think prostitution is just service or job like any other, why would you be offended at being asked if you participate? And why should I care if you are offended when your whole stance of upholding the availability of women as sex chattels for men is deeply offensive to me?

FloraFox · 23/01/2015 21:33

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

SlicedAndDiced · 23/01/2015 21:19

That's good news fayyive.

I couldn't see a good enough reason why any party should have been denied the chance to appear.

PetulaGordino · 23/01/2015 21:18

Lion I don't have any allegiance to any particular party. I'm still exploring the different propositions and local candidates

PuffinsAreFictitious · 23/01/2015 21:12

I agree Lion, it's just that, for a lot of people who know about the issue, the stance they've taken is disappointing.

fayyive · 23/01/2015 21:11

breaking news- The Green party will be allowed to participate in the TV leaders' debates after all Smile

greenparty.org.uk/news/leaders-debates-announced-green-party-statement.html

SlicedAndDiced · 23/01/2015 21:05

Yay! That sounds exotic Grin

In all seriousness though that sounds the closest to what I've always personally thought about the issue.

Lioninthesun · 23/01/2015 21:01

I was just wondering what you non-green voters think your party will do to be actively trying to protect women working as prostitutes or trafficking?
I think the Green Party have been very brave to put anything about it at all into their manifesto. It shows that they are thinking about women, which is more than I got from any of the others!

PuffinsAreFictitious · 23/01/2015 20:57

Then Sliced, welcome to the Nordic model supporters club! We have cookies. And cake.

We also have an understanding that most prostituted women tend not to actively choose to be prostituted, and are looking for ways out where they won't be stigmatised. The only stigma should be with the men who use women in this way.

Anyway, back to the thread!

Having thought about it a bit more, I probably will vote green and work from within the party to get them to change their focus with reference to prostitution.

SlicedAndDiced · 23/01/2015 20:49

PuffinsAreFictitious now that is a policy I could get behind.

fallingapartfast · 23/01/2015 20:49

Green!!!

PuffinsAreFictitious · 23/01/2015 20:42

No worries Gatorade, it's a bit of a minefield!

The basics are that some people want to make it a-ok for men to use women in this way, but others want to make it safer for women by criminalising the men (which has ramifications re: being believed and helped when raped etc), while providing training, social work and other help to women who want to leave. (A conservative estimate puts that figure at about 89% of them)

PhaedraIsMyName · 23/01/2015 20:26

I agree Petula I don't want measures which facilitate prostitution and make it look anything like a valid career choice.

OmnipotentQueenOfTheUniverse · 23/01/2015 20:24

Just an observation here: Surely the main reason that women generally don't contact the police when men do stuff to them - whether the women are prostitutes or not - is that the police aren't interested and women know that.

GatoradeMeBitch · 23/01/2015 20:24

Ah, ok, I should have googled it myself instead of trying to piece things together from the thread!

(Bowing out now, I'm going to have to do much more reading before I can have an informed opinion on this. Still planning on voting Green though.)

PetulaGordino · 23/01/2015 20:09

I see precisely where the greens are coming from on this; I don't agree that it is the best way to protect women in that situation

fayyive · 23/01/2015 20:04

There are already effective laws against trafficking and sexual exploitation of under 18s. I don't see how criminalising prostitution outright is going to help those who are trafficked.

"I would like to see it made as safe for the sex workers as possible."

Agree.

I don't think many people see where the Greens are coming from. They aren't wanting to decriminalise prostitution for the benefit of men, they want to do it with the best interests of prostitutes in mind.

The Nordic model I think would deter prostitutes from calling the police against a client if it were necessary. Being exposed as a prostitute would put her at risk of losing her home, referred to social services and risk losing her children, being arrested for "running a brothel" (if she was working with anyone else). And all for what? All that risk so the police would come and give the client a small fine if anything (the punishment in Sweden if caught buying sex).

Under decriminalisation prostitutes wouldn't have to worry about what I mentioned above and wouldn't be deterred from contacting police if needed.

PuffinsAreFictitious · 23/01/2015 19:40

Prostitution is legal in the UK, Gatorade. Within certain parameters.