sorry/thank you

I do agree with everything scallops says there

It is a shame though if those are considered to be mainstream views of feminism, and I'm just not sure that they are. Perhaps I'm pver-optimistic

Really you don't think we've read a lot about feminism and from feminists we may not agree with? Wow that's pretty patronising.

x posts

Of course, I just sometimes feel that perhaps I - and others - should be sort of claiming back feminism from those who use it to hurt, preach hate, or misrepresent what feminism is aiming for.

But that's just how I feel and I understand people haven't experienced the extremes I have so have no reason to question

What discrimination from feminists? None of those highlight discrimination from feminism. They are just thoughts from randoms on the internet. They are not backed up by any structural power or any influence.

Women are judged on their clothing in a way that men aren't. That is the point. One man. ONE MAN was judged on his offensive clothing (and yes it was objectifying women) and that suddenly negates the many thousands of ways women are controlled by judging the way they are looked. Fighting against this man wearing clothes that objectify women and fighting against women being objectified is the same thing. Not hypocritical at all.

I find it interesting that you've found a comment about how gay men are oppressing women because they don't want a vagina yet ignore the many more comments about how lesbians should embrace transwomen and ignore their penises. Feminism is about the oppression of women. So feminists (if indeed they are a feminist) making comments about women's oppression shouldn't be unexpected .

PETA is an anti-woman organisation. Comparing it to feminism is insulting. It is only you saying that these examples have the loudest voices. Personally I haven't seen or heard of these feminists.

I think you are expecting feminism and feminists to behave to a higher standard than other people. We can't control what all feminists say. We aren't a homogenous group. Why are we responsible for what other people say that we might disagree with (I can't believe I defending queer feminism for example - I'm not btw I'm just defending their right to explore it and have opinions on it)?

I'm not one for saying who is or is not a feminist. Anyone can define themselves as a feminist. But feminism means something and as such I do believe that feminists should be at least inclined to see and acknowledge power structures where they exist.

I'm in my 20s too

Tbh my main focus is on speaking out against the patriarchy and against the widespread, active and critical forces that are damaging to women. thwre are always going to be feminists I disagree with, or viewpointa from people who declare themselves to be feminists that I believe are contrary to feminism's aims.

However, my main priority is not tracking those people down and tellng them how wrong they are. If they appear on my radar I will express my disaagrewment and explain why. But my main focus and concern is the very real harm being done to women by the patriarchy

I'm in my 20's, and I too speak to a lot of young women and teenagers. Most who scorn feminism. Which is sad. Really sad. But I suppose when they're frequenting sites like tumblr, reddit, buzzfeed and the like and the 'bad feminsm' are confronting them it's bound to happen.

And scallops if you don't think lil-purfect-femme is extremist, I would hope her comments like these would change your mind
For once, men need to see how it feels to be living in rape culture every day. Since it’s very difficult for women to actually hurt men, they should be allowed to rape men who promote rape culture. This way- if men continue to promote rape culture after being raped, they’ll have to think about not just all women, but themselves. Taste of their own medicine.I’m not afraid to stand up for my rights

Anyway I'm not trying to make excuses for anyone or back one side up or the other, I just wanted to try and show that these anti-fems aren't necessarily 'man pleasers' or 'handmaidens', that there are things going wrong, that there are factors we need to look and and try to combat.

Of course this is only a handful of people that I'm coming into contact with.

I'm sorry that's been your experience, but based on my own conversations with young women (teenagers mostly) you overestimate how many come into contact with this as their first experience of what they understand to be feminism

• people began identifying as anti-feminists because they see discrimination coming from 'feminists' and things that are questionable. In a lot of cases this is the only experience they've had with feminism so it is understandable that they will resist it, and in some cases try to combat it

• Yes she did have horrible replies, I've read them thank you smile I don;t think they're mainstream at all, for one she tagged it under feminism and patriarchy so even she thinks it's a feminist argument. It's pretty disgusting the suggest that men play video games to control their rape urges. This is an example of the 'man hating' idea people get from feminism.

• the photo of the two people is why people are saying feminism is hypocritical. You can't question what a woman wears, even if it's nothing, but that man was absolutely bombarded with abuse and brought to tears for his shirt. And I'm still not 100% how a shirt with artwork of the female form objectifies women. 'don't tell us how to dress' in one breath then crucifying a man for what he choses.

• and the homosexual one, I'm not even getting into that because it's quite evident what's wrong with it. Not everything is about oppressing women. It's absolutely ridiculous to suggest men being attracted to other men is oppressive.

And from my point of view, the PETA analogy is a good one. Your feminism may be good, but there are parts or groups or whatever that aren't. There's always rot in the woodwork somewhere - and in feminists case at the moment they seem to have the loudest voices ESPECIALLY to young people.

I'm trying to play devil's advocate thats all. I'm not saying I agree with anything either way. But failing to see why people are going against the feminism they have seen is naive. The majority of the people prefer to refer to themselves and equalitarian. They're not anti-women. They're just people who have had bad experiences with feminism and/or feminists groups - and want to do something about it

When I first came back here I got involved in a debate and had a good discussion about this. I've already said this is the only place in which I feel happy to perhaps actually identify as a feminist. In the US, I was subjected to a lot of abuse from feminists when doing work trying to raise awareness for male abuse survivors. There was picketing, threats, all the 'male tears' bullshit. Now imagine that was a teenagers first glimpse of 'feminism'. Would you expect them to welcome it with open arms?

Really not understanding your point GraysAnalogy .

Not quite sure how any of them spawned "anti-feminism", especially the picture of the guy in the shirt that objectifies women and the picture of the woman complaining about the objectification of women?

I don't think stating that homosexuals men oppress women is an "extremist" statement. And the paragraph highlighted sounds like 'queer' feminism to me. Again not considered "extremist" by most. In fact it is taught quite a lot in Gender Studies at universities I believe.

And perhaps you'd like to see some of the responses to lil-purrfect-femme's blog here before deciding who is extremist. I'd say the view she expressed in that photo was more mainstream than feminist anyway. It's where rape myths come from - that men can't control their 'urges'. Not a particularly feminist thought.

anothernumberone - please don't compare my feminism to PETA. No where in feminism does it demand the liberty of group by oppressing another which is what PETA does. It is the antithesis of feminism.

YY Buffy - 'root' is the key word I think. Recognising male supremacy and tackling that and the tools it uses i.e. violence against women and gender as a hierarchy, head on.

There's a distinct difference between radicals and what I can only call the 'extremists' of feminism. The extremists tend to navigate towards websites like Tumblr and places on Reddit

I'm going to post a couple of things which light the fire under some people and thus spawned anti-feminism. These are not in the minority, I see them all the time. Which is what makes this forum so bloody refreshing. I can cleanse my mind.

Sorry

I have heard the phrase "man hating harpy" was used as an insult to any feminist

There was no intention on my part to link it to any level of feminism be it liberal or radical

i love that analogy, Buffy.

I suppose what I am saying is that if the brand of feminism that people come across is the radical brand then they can easily not identify with it iyswim same as KKK, nazis or whatever. It is the case in most campaigns that those with the strongest views take up and charge the cause forward. This means that many off the views that get put forward are at the extreme end of the spectrum which can be a hard sell.

I think PETA are a more appropriate analogy than KKK and nazis, everyone knows they have a very good premise for their beliefs but the campaigners who take up this cause talk and act on the extreme side of the fence. Many vegetarians and women feel uncomfortable with PETA's activities and don't associate with them.

I would consider myself fairly out there in terms of supporting breastfeeding rights and campaigning for improvements in maternity services for women. I have often experienced organisations in these spheres unintentionally alienate people who want something different from those experiences too.

YY scallops

Can we stop calling radical feminism "extreme", please. That isn't what it is or what it means.

It also immediately plays into the hands of MRAs like zina.

I don't think you're quite representing radical feminism correctly there

I know it's not quite what you're saying, but to be clear, radical feminist =/= man-hating harpy any more than someone calling themselves a liberal feminist

Or could I have blamed autocorrect??

Too late for that

And I obviously can't spell NAZI!!!!!

Bloody hell!!!

another

But you could argue that there is no "moderate" version of those groups

Feminists range from someone who believes that there should be equality for women to the radical extreme

I don't think you can have a KKK lite, and how many people self identify as natzi on the school run

I don't expect anyone to say when I identify as a feminist to say "you are a man hating harpy" but if I said I was a natzi I wouldn't be surprised if you called me "anti Semitic"

But I suppose in effect we are just playing with words and it's our experiences that have framed how we view those words

Having said that I am quite a, erm I don't know how to phrase this, basic thinker?? The dictionary definition of feminist is how I realised I was a feminist a very long time ago and I don't think my understanding of it has changed much over the years

A feminist to me is someone who want equal rights for women and that's what I am

I also think that if I came on to MN and said that all Muslims were terrorists following what happened yesterday I would not only be completely wrong, but told that...loudly and at length

Rufus I do think it can be fair to judge a sub category of people based on a select few. The nazis, boko haram, Islamic state spring to mind. No I am not in any way comparing feminists to any of these groupings, I am just making the point.

Radical 'anything' struggles to gain widespread popularity and acceptance. I would argue that is the whole point of radicalism, to point towards the extreme view and bring people someway, or best case scenario, the whole way along the journey to meet that view.

I was guilty of identifying radical and extreme feminism as the only brand of feminism instead of looking to the everyday brand of feminism I was living. I have also been told that you cannot be a feminist unless you hold x view which of course is utter horse shit when you read up on feminism.