sorry/thank you

I totally get it and no your explaining was really helpful not patronising! It's an interesting concept

Gah sorrry I have a tendency to overexplain and then come across patronising, I hope I haven't just done that again. I just like explaining things

In the image, if you don't know the puzzle, the cylinder at the back of the picture looks taller and thicker than the one at the front which looks tiny. But if you take out the lines or compare them directly, they are all the same size. My example doesn't start with two the same size but it's the same idea.

I can't draw it as I would like but it reminds me of this optical illusion/puzzle.

Imagine men's and women's rights/privilege are both represented as towers. The men's tower is quite a bit higher than the woman's tower.

When you're unenlightened, you're standing at one side or the other and you have no context in which to place these towers. If you're on the man's side, you can see the man's tower is higher, but you assume that's because it's closer. They must be the same size really. If you're on the woman's side, the towers look the same size. Without context to tell you that the women's tower is closer, you can't tell it's appearing bigger.

Equally, if you're too close to any one tower it's impossible to judge the size of the other because the one you're close to is too big and in the way.

When you step right back, out of the room, add the perspective lines, join them up, you can see that actually one tower is bigger, and it doesn't matter which way around you view them, that is always the case even if the smaller tower appears bigger.

Does that make any sense at all to anyone?

I see it as a matter of perspective, really. I've been trying to work out how to do this as a graphic, I'll see if I can put one together quickly.

All women see the small inequalities. It's just putting them together that we don't always do until later. I have friends who identify openly as feminists and friends who don't really talk about it or think of themselves in that way but all of them will commiserate on any issue you can think of, as long as it's not too theory based - we're not blind, even if we don't see the full picture.

Oh god I know the 'oh shit!' feeling!

There was a time on here years ago, before I really was interested in feminism as a whole, when I was talking about some things that happened to me and then it suddenly hit me. It was like fuck. I remember crying then feeling this horrible anger. I was blissfully unaware before then that there were actually reasons behind what were happening or had happened, that it was all part of a bigger picture. I still remember that feeling now it gives me shivers.

I haven't read Everyday Sexism yet but I can gather what kinds of things it will say :( I found The Equality Illusion quite drastically eye opening too.

I think it's very hard to see sexism when you are young, and especially (but not only) before you have children. It's only when you start realising that the series of coincidental things which happened to you individually are part of a bigger picture that you think "Oh, SHIT!" and it all starts to come together and make sense.

I'm 26 and have been intrigued by feminism for some time but mumsnet has been an absolute catalyst in the six years I've been here.

Yeah I do agree Buffy Multi faceted, but some are just complete shitlords who have gleefully sided with antifeminism to air their misogynistic views.

Awww man, 20+ posts behind :(

OK now to catch up

Greys, in response to your three images.

1. Doesn't sound like any feminism at all to me. Feminists don't argue that men have "rape urges", in fact they argue the opposite.

I appreciate that the person has tagged it with "feminism", but that doesn't magically make it feminism. I agree that people do mistakenly identify views like this as feminism and that puts them off feminism, but I don't know what you're proposing ("real" feminists) should do about it? You can't keep changing the name of a movement just because some idiot comes along and misrepresents/misunderstands it. TBH I can't stand reddit, and this kind of thing is partly why. I know it's popular but there are lots of other platforms which are accessible, I don't particularly feel like steeling myself to go and delve into somewhere like Reddit (which is 90% young, entitled, white men, and it shows) - I'll keep being as reasonable, balanced (by which I mean sensible, not showing equal arguments from both sides - I don't believe both "sides" here are equal) and articulate as I can when I discuss feminism, in the hope reason and logic win out, because most of these kinds of misunderstood feminism just sound bizarre, TBH, especially when compared to reasonable and well thought out arguments.

1. This sounds like either a joke/attempt at trolling, or a reference to the trans "cotton ceiling" thing. It just doesn't come across as believable like the first one (sadly) does. I'd have my money on it being a reference to cotton ceiling, especially with the "what if I don't identify as a woman" at the end.

1. This is an anti-feminist graphic created to show the "double standards" that the image creator believes feminists hold. But they're not comparing like with like. The argument for women being allowed to be topless is about saying it's not okay to rape somebody whatever they are wearing, and that it's not okay to shame women on the basis of their sexual activity or availability, whereas shirtgate was nothing to do with rape or sexual availability, it was pointed out, quietly, not live on air, that that shirt was an example of a general environment which is hostile to women. Like nude calendars in police stations - you would never see that these days. It's not part of the argument whether nude women on shirts, or calendars, are acceptable (though some feminists may argue that they are not) - the argument was that it was inappropriate in that situation. The equivalent would be someone wearing a shirt with a joke which could be considered racist or homophobic, perhaps a term which is used as endearment between friends but isn't appropriate to wear on international coverage of something related to a field which in which ethnic minorities or gay people are hugely under-represented.

Sorry this took me ages to type as was looking for a letter in between (which DH put in a box yesterday but claimed not to notice!) so probably xposted/conversation has moved on now, but wanted to finish it anyway!

Way too many 'I's in that post. I'm not self obsessed honest

grimble

The problem lies not within them being feminists, it lies within them thinking that they had to act the way they did because they were feminist. They absolutely believed that they were right in what they were doing. It's all well and good you saying they're 'faux feminists' but they don't believe that, and if an outsider were to see that behaviour in the name of feminism then that is going to leave a lasting mark - like it did with me.
If this was an isolated incident it would probably be different It wasn't.

I'm not here to argue whats right and wrong, I'm here to speak about why people may have adopted the 'anti-feminist' stance, and why I think it's a problem that needs to be tackled. I'm not even sure how, but I think it's really really sad (and a bit anger inducing) that feminism is tarred with this now for some groups, including my circles and by the sounds of it Moomins.

petula
I understand completely, I would not for one minute point speak about this to catch you out or troll you or anything. My reasons are above and I hope I haven't offended or angered anyone.

Anyway, I wanted to ask about Everyday Sexism that someone mentioned upthread I think. I haven't actually read it but I have it on my iPad. Is it worth a read then?

Grays: quite apart from feminists not been a homogenous lump defined by group think, anyone can say they're a feminist - doesn't mean they are. Anyone can append any label they like to themselves.

I rather think you have answered you own concerns when you say they have a silly group name - bit of a giveaway really.

Spending our time try to explain/oppose whatever nonsense some group who happen to call themselves feminists expound is a diversion from the important issues we debate or campaign for. If people are daft enough to be easily taken in by these faux feminists I doubt they have the mindset to be sympathetic to feminism in the first place. Life is to short to challenge every straw man comment on the internet. These faux feminists are probably only acting as confirmation bias to pre-conceived and erroneous notions anyway.

X-post (slowly typing while I dry my hair!)

That's interesting moomin that that's been your experience too (and sorry for assumptions in my last post!)

I have also come across those types of views under a feminist banner. However, and gray I am absolutely not putting you in this category so please don't tjink that for a moment, the people who have usually brought them to my attentipn have often been MRAs out to troll and provoke, or men who claim to support feminism but are also very keen to impart their views of how it is doing things wrong (and how I should be a better feminist). So they've been used to try and catch me out, or to divert discussion away from men having to take on board some uncomfortable truths

I have much more rarely come across this situation where someone is put off being a feminist by those sorts of examples you have shown. Frequently people like the OP says she originally felt, that feminism had done enough and that women who continued to bang on about this stuff were overthinking etc etc. Or those who have misunderstood or misquoted dworkin and others

Please don't think I'm saying that you're lying - clearly it must be the case if you have spoken to young women and girls who have said this. But I wouldn't have thought it was so prevalent. But as I say, i may be more optimistic or blinkered than I thought!

I don't think they're feminist views either. I think they're the ideas of people using feminism as a banner to, as I said, spew their hatred. However these people identified as feminists, used the patriarchy argument to try and condone their actions, so I can hardly say that they weren't a feminist group?

They did also have a really silly group name, I can't remember it right now but when I remember I'll post it. I do remember thinking I bet they think it's witty.

No I am saying I haven't seen those views. They are not views made by people fighting abuse. They aren't feminist views.

So what are you trying to say, because you haven't heard of it it didn't happen? If so you're proving my point I posted above.

I have never heard of male abuse survivors receiving threats off feminists nor any threats to groups organising to help male abuse victims. And I get involved in a lot of work around DV.

I never said I haven't seen or heard anything of this nature. I said I hadn't heard of these particular people.

But those examples aren't discrimination. To label it as such ignores the power imbalance at play.

Really you don't think we've read a lot about feminism and from feminists we may not agree with

I'm not just talking about reading. I'm talking about being abused and receiving threats from feminist groups, from being assaulted by them, receiving death threats from them. All for daring to support male abuse survivors. That's what I meant by extremes :)

No structural power, but these people have a lot of 'followers', young people who cling onto their very words. You haven't see discrimination from feminists, fair enough. I have. Particularly for LGBT and men.

I'm not ignoring anything. You're missing my point. I was simply trying to show the sorts of things that people are seeing, things that may be the reasons why people are rejecting the feminist label.

Personally I'm glad you haven't seen or heard anything of the nature. Good for you, but not good for us who have - because people don't like believing that we have. There's always excuses; we're either lying, misunderstanding or it's a 'troll'. Like I've said a hundred times, I was losing faith in feminism until I came back here and saw sense from people. Saw feminism for what I had always believed it was. Not some movement hijacked by those wanting to spew their misinformed, discriminatory, misandrist opinions.

Anyway I'm so sorry this positive thread has turned not so - it's brilliant that Moomin feels her eyes have been opened and perhaps a bit enlightened? Bit like me when I joined

Yes and I agree with your comment before mine Petula - which was much more succinct than mine .