Feminist Pub 15: The Bluestocking hangs up its, err, stocking and hopes for a chatty Christmas and a Feminist New Year

Merry Christmas feminists. Wishing you all happiness, peace, love and light.

And the end of Patriarchy, natch.

We were walking back from the pub at the time too! Clear sky. We saw the moon and some stars. But forgot about the ISS.

We couldn't see it. Too cloudy

Damn! We missed the international space station!

A holiday baseball shirt for all:

Does creche look totally wrong for other people too. Blooming app.

Here's to smashing. And chipping. And pubs with crèches.

Peace and love to all at Christmas.

Here's to smashing the patriarchy.

Sorry if I upset anyone, especially Annie and Jeanne. I didn't mean to. without wanting to pettyfog, I didn't use the word sneer myself, and what I was applauding in kickassangel's post was not the use of this word, but her balanced overview of the different pressures and contexts everyone faces.

So I whole heartedly apologise for anything I have done to bring disharmony and wish you all very happy and merry Christmas or yule or other festival or general winter season of, I hope, being with loved ones and being happy. And here's to smashing the patriarchy in 2015

Nothing sexist in learning a new skill. Unless you think the value of doing so is somehow linked to possession or otherwise of a penis.

I can't wrap for toffee. No patience for it either.

Well, I have left DH at home with DD (age 11) to wrap my presents. Apparently she is being creative in how she does this.

Teaching Dd to wrap gifts isn't sexist, is it? Not if DH teaches her (a bit blind leading the blind)

On the other hand, I just got given a free cookie cutter at the mall. They're being handed out to all the women. I could have given the charming lady a lecture on gender stereotypes, but I took the cookie cutter with a smile, as it is so different from the 15 other snowflake cookie cutters I have.

Will just lean up against the bar and have a nice reviving gluhwein before I gather up stuff to go home to the folks. Merry Christmas all!

Without wanting it to look like a pile on, I'd like to say that Annie's post just wasn't as you described it Ellis.

This is as safe a space as we can make it, given that it's part of a public forum and one that attracts a large number of trolls, and if we can't use it for it's intended purpose then it's a bit pointless. It's intended purpose by the way is to have somewhere to chit chat or to just post small annoyances.

What Annie said wasn't anti feminist imo, the post on FB that it was referring to was.

I don't see how we can have a binary "us and them" situation. There will be some people who think that it's fine for women to do all the domestic work and maintaining social contacts and so on. There will be those who think it must be 50/50. And those who are somewhere in between, depends on the situation and different factors like what employment there is, physical capabilities and so on. Some people will never have questioned it, others will have recognised that the woman in a heterosexual relationship doing all the work is not ideal, but they don't know how to challenge it, and some people will just put their foot down if they perceive an imbalance. And if you look wider than just domestic life - well, I might agree with some people about how to tackle issues with women in the workplace, but I might disagree with some of them on porn or whatever.

Basically, there's no consensus, and that's a good thing - I'd be worried if there were only One True Path, because even if we do need to work together to change things, that needs to be done alongside debate and questioning, getting other perspectives. But we are all heading in the same direction, even if we're not all going to get there the same way.

And I'd say most people here are open to that most of the time. We may each of us have our own little areas where we're more intransigent than others, but mostly, there's discussion and learning, alongside frustrated rantings and recognition from others. (Or at least, there is from my perspective.)

Does anyone want to do my vacuuming for me?

Yes, I can imagine, annie, and that's what's bothering me.

So. Merry Christmas to those that celebrate it. Hope any of the rest of have a nice restful day.

Sorry you feel that Annie. I was trying to be supportive too. Whilst recognising that there was space for other discussions alongside.

Annie has been nothing but kind and patient and understanding to me in all my years here.

Come on people, the pub is supposed to be lighthearted, not serious analysis. You can start a new thread for that.

If you're finding it upsetting, Jeanne, imagine how I feel? And you're the first person to have my back through this drawn-out attack, so thank you.

I expect I am missing things, but I am finding this upsetting.

annie doesn't sneer at people. It's ok to criticise each other, but this is getting very personal in a way I'm not very comfortable with.

Great post kickass.

you see, Ellis, I think that sometimes, doing what we have to do means coming on here and moaning, hoping that no-one will trounce us for it.

My sister, for example, is perfectly happy with a DH who earns mega money but is making his teen daughters live on a pittance for an allowance and she worries about making the housekeeping stretch when we go to visit her. He owns 8 cars. There's a huge number of examples I could give to show how entrenched within the patriarchy, and what an outspoken supporter of it, she is. I try to say and do a little to show that there are other ways to live, but I am treated like some troublesome teen with two heads who just needs to grow up. Expect my husband to cook a meal? Haha. Actually voice what I want to watch o TV? Don't be so awkward. Refuse to iron his shirts? Other men would leave me for that.

It is hard when encountering women like that not to bite back. Just because my sister got a rich husband, she thinks the system works, and is adamant that we should all be part of it. She can be nasty and bitchy about people who don't conform to the norm (e.g. laughing loudly at a kid who had a slightly unusual nickname) and see it as perfectly OK because THEY are the odd ones.

When it is a woman who does this, it feels like betrayal. It isn't just the frustration of butting my head up against her ideas, it is the pain of her rejection and patronising of me, which makes me angry and resentful. If I come on here and say something scathing about her, it is those emotions I'm responding to. It isn't because I think we are some collective of 'better' people who have seen the light, but because here is a space where I can express my outrage and pain about these situations. I may use unpleasant language and even call my sister a bitch, but I will also get back out there and engage in a more positive way once I've had my 'time out' over here.

I have no idea if Annie sneers at other women in real life, or if there's a long back story of those women sneering at her, and finally she cracked. I can give her some space to put forward her resentment, and to engage a little positively about how/why these things could change. We all speak/write hastily at times, and a little more compassion is never a bad thing.