Any good examples to help point out sexism to my DH?

Mostly I live in a lovely world, but it could be lovelier. It'd be lovelier without sexisim, trying to assign roles and characteristics by gender rather than just treating people as equal individuals.

No idea what the bit about emasculated men is about.

UptoapointLordCopper - Sorry, but I don't get why you're so angry? Can you explain rather than bite my head off?

I came to this thread because it challenged my world view and I wanted to learn. I usually do this by explaining what I see (which I know is just that, my perception, nothing else) and asking questions of other people's experiences. I'm sorry if my views are in some way offensive to you, but if you could at least explain why, maybe I'll learn something.

So how many women would be happy with an emasculated man? I'd be livid if DH thought he was going to a SaHD. I don't see that as me being oppressed into being the little wifey he wants. Is this one of those things you either get, or you don't?

I run my own business, and is meet loads of people who's only view of the world is that they need to find a job. Like the penny will never drop that they are capable themselves of providing for themselves without needing to ask an employer for a job. I can just tell talking to them that working for ABC Company or shuffling paper for their local District Council is the sum total of their entire understanding of how to earn a living.

So I'm wondering is this is something I just don't get? Something I'm waiting for a penny drop moment to happen and then I'll see the picture you see? Because from reading the thread, you seem to live in a very insidious and dark world, and I only see social dynamics, politicking, and the usual gender stereotyping.

OP, you could point your DH towards instances of people making sweeping gender-based generalisations. I'm sure you can find some around somewhere.

"You weren't meant to take in literally."

Ooo! Aren't you patronising?

Yeah, it's not some silly woman thing

Why so defensive?

And no pecking orders in mens groups at all.. oh, you know except for the military, and street gangs, star sportsplayers and their hangers on etc.

Yes, but there is a fundamental difference between an adhoc social group, and a working environment. Hierarchies exist in all working environments and they form a function. They create structure and they focus the efforts of a collective under some form of leadership.

In a social gathering men tend not to compare themselves to other.

Totally different.

It is. They are. But if you are not going to look at other groups, societies, structures, whatever, and you are not going to ask the question, "Why?" What else do you have other than to complain. Complaining never solved anything. People asking questions and finding answers that are not the ones trotted out by the majority of also-rans, tend to move societies forward.

Hahahahaha. Like we've got enough allies/material to build a fucking fiefdom.

It was a metaphor. You weren't meant to take in literally.

No. I didn't say men's behaviour isn't destructive, just not specifically destructive to the individual. Yes they tend to be tribal, cause conflict, fight and kill each other, and I don't condone those things. I was drawing a comparison between an men who tend towards reflecting anxiety, doubt, conflict, anger etc. towards the outside world, and not towards themselves, and one that reflects those inwards towards self doubt, judgement and criticism.

We cannot change the way men are, as a gender. Nor can we blame them for all the evil in the world. And we cannot change the way we are, as a gender. The best we can do is try to understand and influence those around us, as OP is striving to do.

It seems to me that men don't go through life judging each other, and they're not bitchy or catty

It's actually amazing to me that anyone could say this. Observing the world, observing politics, sport, the workplace, wherever, and say this. It's not called "bitchiness" or "cattiness" - those are words only used about women. But the behaviour is the same. Our violent, tribal, hate-filled world is run by men - I think the evidence of men behaving in aggressively competitive, combative and eventually damaging and cruel ways to each other and to the rest of the world is pretty universal. Or must there be a bitchy woman behind the whole thing?

'but it's not a cliquey social dynamic, it's tribal.'

Yeah, it's not some silly woman thing, it's a primal urge for blokes to gang together.

And no pecking orders in mens groups at all.. oh, you know except for the military, and street gangs, star sportsplayers and their hangers on etc.

Bollocks is right.

Totally different.

"Some women build little fiefdoms about themselves and have to defend their territory."

Hahahahaha. Like we've got enough allies/material to build a fucking fiefdom.

I work in a predominantly male environment and experience pretty much what you are describing BreakingDad, and what you quoted.

It just isn't noticed when men do it.

"Whereas women have to have their own clique, to constantly measure themselves against other women, to know where they are in the social pecking order."

I don't know yonic, I have been told by women working in predominantly female workplaces, e.g child care, primary school teaching that it can be horrific and borderline bullying. Have met fair number of women who enjoy people watching 'look at the state of that' etc

Though are they acting up in this manner for the male patriachy?

"It seems to me that men don't go through life judging each other, and they're not bitchy or catty.!" Hahahahaha

It isn't called bitchy or catty I'll grant you. But men are more competitive with each other. It is thought to be healthy. They are also equally if not more judgemental of women. You only have to look at the comments on articles by women in CiF or anywhere women are saying things men don't want to hear. The way men talk about women on sport sites or special interest sites, student sites, p*nternet or any site where men are the majority. I've never heard women talking about other women as objects for sexual gratification. Men really do set the bar high when it come to judgingother women.

"Sure, they have confrontations and beat seven bells out of each other sometimes..." Because that is way better than being cliquey . Fucking hell you set the bar low for acceptable male behaviour and considerably higher for women.

"Some women build little fiefdoms about themselves and have to defend their territory." Yeah because you never see men do that at all . Men defend their territory all the time. They aren't giving up their privilege and power and sharing it with women (or other men for that matter). You only have to look at sites such as Everyday Sexism to see the ways in which men do this. The sexual harassment on the streets. The sexual harassment on public transport. Women don't rape and murder other women. The pay gap. But yeah men aren't cliquey (bollocks they aren't - they certainly don't want to share the privilege that coms with male-only spaces such as golf courses, board rooms etc).

"Whereas women have to have their own clique, to constantly measure themselves against other women, to know where they are in the social pecking order." I don't find this true either.

It seems you are very selective in your choices of who is judging who and who is policing women, elephantspoo.

"Whereas women have to have their own clique, to constantly measure themselves against other women, to know where they are in the social pecking order."

I don't find this to be true.

If anything elephantspoo i judge menmore harshly so what you type after "whereas" is not fact. It is something women are told all the time; that they are "bitchy"

A young boy and his father are in a car accident. The father dies at the scene. The boy is transported to the hospital, taken immediately into surgery... but the surgeon steps out of the operating room and says, "I can't operate on this boy - he is my son!"

First thing I thought was it could just as easily have been his father and his mother. But then I guess I never really thought conventionally anyway.

It seems to me that men don't go through life judging each other, and they're not bitchy or catty. Sure, they have confrontations and beat seven bells out of each other sometimes, but it's not a cliquey social dynamic, it's tribal. Tribalism of the bollocks, where they all move and ally themselves with the herd.

Whereas women have to have their own clique, to constantly measure themselves against other women, to know where they are in the social pecking order. Am I prettier than her? Am I more intelligent? More witty? Slimmer? Taller? Classier? And then comparing notes with friends, sharing observations, speculating about this woman or that. Can you believe her attitude? Did you see the size of...? Some women build little fiefdoms about themselves and have to defend their territory. These are my men. I was listening to Radio 4 this evening. Queen Bees they call them.

Sorry, but why are women made to feel bad about getting pregnant?

Christmassy, glad you got equal pay in the end.

What they said to you about you having done yourself no favours getting pregnant, it leads in to another huge discrimination for women. The continuation of the species, that is fairly important to all but women are made to feel bad about.

Link him to the 'Male Privilege Checklist'.

amptoons.com/blog/the-male-privilege-checklist/

Oops wrong thread

Team Bianca

The FinkBeiner test is another good one (could be applied to women in politics, or any other field not just science of course).

When you think about the bechdel test it starts to mess with your head as you realise how women are marginalised and secondary in every aspect of our culture. Not sure I. Could deal with someone who couldn't see it because it suggests they really don't see anything odd about them being the default and me being the variant.

Patriarchy probably tells you more often how much celeb man is worth compare to celeb woman's bra size.