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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Any good examples to help point out sexism to my DH?

135 replies

BertieBotts · 25/11/2014 20:26

As he announced this evening that I am "just looking for sexism everywhere" (Nope, not looking, it just is there) and he was upset that I saw the world as such a black dark evil place Hmm (I don't).

I'm not particularly interested in explanations of privilege like the video game difficulty setting thing, just examples that he will "get". I used the example that a man might be upset if a man he knows wants to date his sister whereas a woman would never be upset at a woman wanting to date her brother, unless she thought the woman was a total psychopath. Well, that didn't work because he has 3 sisters, all an entire generation older than him so of course they have been overprotective and ridiculous over every GF he has ever had Grin So I called "Friends" and he started making up arguments.

He gets the "big stuff", but he doesn't see the smaller, everyday type of feminism, and that's what I'd like to open his eyes to if possible. I know that a lot of it is just that it's invisible to him because it happens so often to women that we don't mention it and men, especially if they don't do it, don't realise that it's happening at all.

OP posts:
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Greywackejones · 15/01/2015 17:17

Do you work?

You will stop being paid on November 4th tgen for the year.

But a man gets paid all year..

You will lose £200k in your lifetime just for being a woman.

grimbletart · 15/01/2015 15:57

Miggsie: here's your answer to your last sentence Sad and that's from an article over 10 years ago. I remember the furore about at the time.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/1468464/Women-weakening-medical-profession.html

Miggsie · 15/01/2015 14:37

Why are some jobs/tasks allocated by gender? How can this make sense?

Is there some real difference in the X and Y chromosome which means ironing can only really be done by one gender?

Anyone can iron if they know how, ditto hoovering, washing up, buying a birthday card.
Yet surveys show that 70% of the time it is women who do these things. Men with a female partner get to drop or never even engage in huge amounts of work (generally dreary work too, such as mopping floors).

Why is it expected that domestic tasks should be done by women, especially if both partners work?
Why is assumed men will be better at maths? DD spends more time countering sexist stuff about how girls are not usually good at maths than she does doing maths sometimes.

Men's lives run by expecting women to do the majority of unpaid work that daily life entails.

When a job becomes female dominated it is downgraded and seen as easy: secretaries, shop staff etc.

I do wonder what will happen now more women qualify as doctors than men...

SkaterGrrrrl · 15/01/2015 14:19

"I think my issue is that the things which are clear he notices, and the things which are more muddy but totally obvious to me, aren't to him. Because, oh, well the Daily Mail is a terrible paper, or that bloke is just an arsehole, or those men who don't do housework are bad husbands. He's seeing individual incidents of dealing with sexist/arsehole people, not the whole pattern which shows how endemic sexism is."

The personal is political!

ErrolTheDragon · 19/12/2014 09:55

ITA. You only have to look at different societies around the world to see how much 'gender based' behaviour is a cultural construct.

Quangle · 19/12/2014 09:51

We cannot change the way men are, as a gender

Well we can. And we are. And we are changing ourselves too. One hundred years ago I would have been expected to be entirely dependent on a husband or father. But thanks to the huge strides in the way women are permitted to behave, I run my own business, employ 32 people and am a single parent - defiantly being head of my family. This is because our concepts of femininity have shifted and women have changed in response. Masculinity is going to change too. And it's not a zero sum - we are all better off if we are able to live life outside of these ridiculously narrow gendered constraints.

BertieBotts · 18/12/2014 22:53

I don't mind :) I got what I needed from this thread so if it's gone in a different direction and others are getting something interesting/new from it then debate away! Equally feel free to start a new one if you want... this is not one of those forums with hugely strict rules about threads.

OP posts:
JeanneDeMontbaston · 18/12/2014 21:54

Oh, don't worry, it's not really an etiquette thing, just the way the thread went. And I was an arse jumping in when others had been so much more patient.

elephantspoo · 18/12/2014 21:18

Sorry. Just my manner. I'm new and didn't follow etiquette. I just kinda started talking and typing. My bad, and my apologies to OP.

JeanneDeMontbaston · 18/12/2014 20:58

Sorry, I feel I was really rude.

I just feel like ... it'd be so much easier on a new thread where I could follow what you meant without feeling as if it was all going in circles.

ErrolTheDragon · 18/12/2014 20:46

elephants - if there is stuff you want to discuss/learn about feminism/sexism etc, do start a thread or contribute to others - I think your first contribution to this one sort of plonked in and came across more like you were pontificating than trying to learn, which from subsequent posts probably wasnt your intent.

elephantspoo · 18/12/2014 20:41

JeanneDeMontbaston - OK, I'll shut up. My apologies to OP and sorry I can't contribute constructively to this discussion.

elephantspoo · 18/12/2014 20:38

*Do you personally agree with the thesis discussed on R4? It sounds like you do.

I don't.*

No because I saw no evidence, but the argument was convincing enough to raise questions.

elephantspoo · 18/12/2014 20:34

I think the reason men can be all relaxed about not judging themselves is because so much less is expected of them.

Why is less expected of men than women? I only 'allow' people to expect things of me because I choose to. My mother is allowed to expect me to not forget her birthday, and DH is allowed to expect me pander to some of his wants because I choose to. My costumers expect me to be polite and professional. I don't work in a corporate environment, so I no longer need to dress and act in any prescribed corporate manner.

It's like these posts by elephant that can somehow admit that men (as a collective of course!)

I don't get the insinuation. Were you expecting me to say, 'yes, some men are violent as individuals, and don't act in some tribal unit?

... cause much more physical damage yet still conclude that women are the more malevolent sex.

That in no way reflects what I said. But if you choose to read a prescribed set of connotations into my words, to fit your view, no words would be suitable. There is no judgement of good or evil in my text, and no statement of intent. I only draw comparison. I don't even allude to motive.

And of course we can change gender seeing that gender is a social construct (and no that's not the same as biological sex). You only have to compare different cultures to see that male violence towards women is affected greatly by upbringing.

I don't disagree with this.

ErrolTheDragon · 18/12/2014 20:31

I've never observed that 'Queen Bee' behaviour. But it sounds a lot like some of what DH talked about in a former workplace - among men. So that theory does sound toshy to me TBH. Radio 4 is good but you don't have to believe everything on it.

YonicSleighdriver · 18/12/2014 20:24

Do you personally agree with the thesis discussed on R4? It sounds like you do.

I don't.

elephantspoo · 18/12/2014 20:20

I'm not angry.

Sorry, but you seem to be.

Perhaps you can clarify exactly what you mean by building personal fiefdom?

I was talking specifically about a Radio 4 broadcast I had listened to this week where the guests were talking about their experiences in the workplace, and the lack of support women in power give younger women coming up the ranks. They were describing the phenomenon of women who found they are the only women in a powerful position in an organisations being defensive of their position among men and pulling up the ladder behind them (the exact phrase used) and acting like queen bees (the exact phrase used).

That was what I was referring to. I am sure the discussion is available online, it was only in this past week, and it was definitely on Radio 4.

So it may be complete tosh. But that is why it was being discussed on the radio I suppose. To explore whether or not is was rubbish.

And running your own business = the only respectable way of earning a leaving?

Did I say that? It was allegory. I was clearing explaining the concept of an awakening in understanding, not proposing a lifestyle choose. You are attacking for no just reason.

So far the evidence is that you don't get it.

Thank-you. That is why I am reading and asking questions.

JeanneDeMontbaston · 18/12/2014 19:57

I'm not trying to be harsh, but, reading this thread ... it strikes me you're terribly invested in this idea you 'want to expand my thinking' and you seem to imagine it's terribly, terribly important you should provide masses of questions and wait self-importantly for us to answer them.

But it's not your thread. You're distracting from someone else's really pretty important and personal question. And, as others who've been posting and not (like me) lurking have said, that's sort of like making work for us.

Why don't you offer a few helpful points, or start your own thread? It's getting exhausting reading this one.

messyisthenewtidy · 18/12/2014 19:55

I think the reason men can be all relaxed about not judging themselves is because so much less is expected of them.

It's like these posts by elephant that can somehow admit that men (as a collective of course!) cause much more physical damage yet still conclude that women are the more malevolent sex.

And of course we can change gender seeing that gender is a social construct (and no that's not the same as biological sex). You only have to compare different cultures to see that male violence towards women is affected greatly by upbringing.

elephantspoo · 18/12/2014 19:53

Elephantspoo, you don't seem capable of thinking outside your own ingrained form of learned gendered behaviour.

Thank-you for being honest.

Why don't you start by unpicking your attitude to 'emasculation'? Why would a SAHF be less 'masculine' than a working father, or indeed an unemployed man without children? Do a man's testicles shrink dangerously every time he changes a nappy or does a load of laundry?

Are all of societies roles (jobs) capable of being done equally well by both genders? Yes. Is society amenable to having all roles available to both genders? Currently not. We are (most of us), or have been raised to be, prejudice towards one gender or other in some jobs. I am prejudice, but I would have a problem leaving DCs in the care of male nursery staff. I know they are CBR checked. But it makes me feel anxious and I cannot work, so I use a nursery that only employs women (presumably by chance, and not by diktat). But would a nursery run solely by men ever succeed in business?

Obviously, you're entitled to your own preferences in terms of what forms of masculinity you find attractive, but please don't assume the rest of us suffer from your Ayn Rand caveman fantasies.

Yes I see that other people find other characteristics attractive, and I tend towards the 'caveman provider' if you want to characterise me that way. And I have to confess to reading a little Ayn Rand, so you have a point. That is why I came to read this thread, because I wanted to expand my thinking.

And do you think things like the pay gap and the under-representation of women in positions of power are imaginary?

As regards the pay gap, I can honestly say it's not something I have ever experiences, but that is pure happenstance and I accept not typical. I have worked in call centres where the staff was fairly mixed, but most of the supervisors were female. We were all paid the same, male and female, at least from what I could see of the pay grades immediately above mine.

But could I compare my job to a guy installing satellites? Or the security staff who were subcontracted? Or the cleaning crews that came in at night? No. I work for myself now, so I don't have a frame of reference outside of low level jobs (bar work, waiting tables, sitting on a checkout, stacking shelves, etc.), but on the whole. I don't quite see, at that level, where the pay gap was between me and a male in a similar role. So I assume this is a management level issue within corporations?

And yes, I do see the lack of women in positions of power, although I would point to the Federal Reserve and ask, "Is there a more powerful organisation on the planet?"

JeanneDeMontbaston · 18/12/2014 19:34

How on earth is being a SAHD 'emasculated'? Confused

You do know what 'emasculated' means, right? And you realize it's a tiny bit incompatible with, uh, being a dad?

UptoapointLordCopper · 18/12/2014 19:30

Actually, fuck that. Don't reply. I spent all day today picking to bits exactly what a student meant by every sentence he wrote. Can do without more of that.

UptoapointLordCopper · 18/12/2014 19:27

I'm not angry.

Perhaps you can clarify exactly what you mean by building personal fiefdom?

And SAHP = emasculated? Or is that only for men?

And running your own business = the only respectable way of earning a leaving?

So far the evidence is that you don't get it.

Beangarda · 18/12/2014 19:24

Elephantspoo, you don't seem capable of thinking outside your own ingrained form of learned gendered behaviour. Why don't you start by unpicking your attitude to 'emasculation'? Why would a SAHF be less 'masculine' than a working father, or indeed an unemployed man without children? Do a man's testicles shrink dangerously every time he changes a nappy or does a load of laundry?

Obviously, you're entitled to your own preferences in terms of what forms of masculinity you find attractive, but please don't assume the rest of us suffer from your Ayn Rand caveman fantasies.

And do you think things like the pay gap and the under-representation of women in positions of power are imaginary?

Quiero · 18/12/2014 19:24

I think an excellent example of sexism is how women cannot talk about sexism online without a man turning up and telling them they're wrong.

Says it all really.