Why isn't there a genuine 'Men's Movement'..?

"They don't particularly qualify as a MRE group, however, they openly propose and support misogynistic policies. Policies that won't do men any favours either, because they are also very very stupid."

Then why are they mentioned at all in this thread?

"No one hates men or boys just because they are men or boys, misandry isn't real, "

Noone? That's a lie and you know it.

"There are plenty of male feminist allies thanks"

There are also females supporting men's rights, including Canadian Senator Anne Cools a former radical feminist who helped found shelters for female DV victims. She is now an advocate for male victims of DV (and the key speaker at the video I posted earlier about the forum for male victims of DV).

But in general, the people who identify as feminists are dominantly female. There are "male feminists" here and there but are usually either misinformed ignorant brainless idiots or guys who are dim and are just pretending to be feminists thinking it might help get them laid (aka "white knights").

As for male politicians claiming to be feminists or wearing feminist t-shirts it's a good tactic in the run-up to the election to get votes from feminists (much respect to David Cameron who refused to wear one of those t-shirts for a photo!).

I'm stunning. Just putting it out there.

"That’s why conventionally good looking women aren’t great supporters of feminism."

Lolz. I don't have anything constructive to add.

Bertie...

I agree that feminists believe that solving women's issues would help men, and struggle to get men to see that. But rarely have I seen the opposite acknowledged by feminists; that solving men's issues will also help women. In fact, any talk of men's issues seems to be met with hostility by many feminists (at least on this forum).

What's my point you ask? Well, it can be summed up with the question "Why the hostility towards men's rights movements?".

I appreciate that women want to prioritise their own efforts on the issues that most affect them, and I'm not saying that feminists should go out and start campaigning for fairer custody courts or more men in nursing. But why oppose it?

That guy above, rissepuc I think... I can't say I want to be associated with what he's saying, but some valid points were mentioned. Men do have genuine issues that in this thread, have been dismissed. I don't think it's reason that's causing the dismissal of those issues, it's willful ignorance and misandry.

Finally, I expressed the view that this approach is actually hurting the feminist cause.

Hope that clears things up regarding my perspective.

Oh I stopped reading that post after about the first three lines and missed that gem.

I know this is bear shit obvious, but really, if your idea of being disadvantaged means that you don't get to have as much sex as some unspecified other person, your worldview is extremely skewed, twisted and upside down. Like, just... astounding. Literally. Go and read some stuff about Ferguson, for Christ's sake. Nobody's asking you to be on board with feminism but check your privilege.

Puffins,

You did not show me that I am wrong. Do you dispute that men are underrepresented in the intake of new nurses? Can you not see how the profession being gendered is of a disadvantage to male nurses?

Promotion (which I agree favours men) statistics aren't the only way of measuring discrimination in the workplace.

What you did, was completely ignore the possibility of men being discriminated in nursing/teaching/childcare and went straight onto the areas in those professions where women are discriminated against. And that is a 'boo hoo' response.

Then surely solving the women's issues will help men too. Which is what feminists are trying to do. No feminist ever said that men's and women's issues are not linked.

I feel like you're trying to have an argument, where no argument actually exists. Yes there are problems with the way men are perceived in female dominated workplaces, this is related to the fact that female dominated professions are seen as a bit shit, and why would a man want to do them, cue instant suspicion.

Feminism supports the notion that men can be and are just as good at caring as women are. If it didn't, then there would be feminist campaigns about preventing men from entering female dominated workplaces. I'm sorry, I'm not seeing what you're really asking. Are you asking why feminists don't campaign for/support this? Or why men's movements don't exist which campaign for and support this? In either case I refer you to my first point on this thread, which is that (a) there are usually more pressing issues that people want to support and (b) because feminism is already supportive of this kind of outcome. It's not about getting women everything men have and leaving the rest to the blokes, it's about gender not being grounds to discriminate on. That includes men!

Did somebody just say that conventionally good looking women are not supportive of feminism ?

Brilliant

Only ugly, hairy ones need apply

Prashad, maybe you're reading a different post to the one I made, because at no point did I suggest boo hoo cry me a river, I merely showed you that you're entirely and completely wrong when it comes to nursing. Is that the same thing now?

"That’s why conventionally good looking women aren’t great supporters of feminism."

Ahahaha! Oh arsenal, you have dug deeper than your previous low with this one.

I really hope lurkers appreciate this, because... dull. Anyway, for the last time.

If they are anything like the BNP, I would have used the term racists. I really don't see how UKIP qualify as a men's rights group, do they ever mention things like prostate cancer funding?

They don't particularly qualify as a MRE group, however, they openly propose and support misogynistic policies. Policies that won't do men any favours either, because they are also very very stupid.

If someone hates men/boys for no reason other than because they are male, that is misandry.

No one hates men or boys just because they are men or boys, misandry isn't real, unless you live in the febrile imagination of PElam or one of his scary violent MREs

Your interest in men's problems is zero (and many feminists have openly said that), again that is why men's rights movements exist, they aren't expecting feminists to sort out their problems for them.

That's going to come as a nasty shock to my husband and various other men I support due to some volunteer work I do. MREs do expect feminists to sort out their problems for them, They are pretty explicit about it, maybe they just haven't told you that yet.

If feminism was about equality then it would be supported by both men and women and there would be no need for MRAs. But as it turns out, we have one side campaigning for women's rights only and another side campaigning for men's rights.

There are plenty of male feminist allies thanks, because even pretty stupid people realise that hurting women hurts men too in the long run.

It seems to be a lose-lose for men. If they expect feminists to help with men's rights they get abuse and ridicule, but if they set up their own movements they also get abuse and ridicule.

This makes no sense, so... yeah... no comment.

Really? And what "power" do typical everyday men who aren't world leaders or PMs have exactly?

Can you read? Men are in power, if they wanted to change things for other men they would, they don't, ergo, men in power couldn't give a shiny one about men not in power.

I don't know what MH is, but it is true feminist NGOs get millions of government funding while men's groups get zero and get by on donations alone.

MH = Mental health, that thing which helps people with MH problems, like the ones who commit suicide. And yes, refuges do get funding from the govt, because even the govt recognises they do a good job, they only got that funding having run entirely on donations and women giving up space in their own houses at great risk to themselves for YEARS. Welcome to capitalism.

And meanwhile men are committing suicide, dying of the under-researched prostate cancer and going to prison. But hey, I guess men should just ignore these issues and join feminism instead. Trying to Find TV ads to write complaints about I guess is far more important.

Prostate cancer doesn't kill. Most men die with it, rather than from it. Treatment for it is exemplary and always has been. It took a huge amount of action to get the medical profession to even admit that women were dying of breast cancer. If you want to make a noise about prostate and other cancers, maybe join Men United, like my DH did. Bill Bailey would be really happy if you do.

Oh, and that video... proves absolutely nothing. Lots of ear splitting noise. Could have been of a bear baiting or the floor of the stock exchange. Nice cherry picking of comments by the way.

Puffins... You illustrate my point perfectly.

Of course women are discriminated in the workplace. But it is the tendency of feminists to overlook or ignore the way men are discriminated too.

In the case of nursing: men are severely underrepresented in the intake of new students, and also male nurses can expect their care to be refused by female patients whereas male patients are not given the choice to refuse care from female nurses resulting in female nurses being more useful and therefore more employable. If you're a man who just wants to be a nurse and does not care about promotion, you are disadvantaged. If you are a male patient who does not want to be cared for by a female nurse then you are disadvantaged in comparison to a female patient.

Regarding childcare roles such as a nursery worker... Is he a paedo?

For men, these are real issues that affect them. What you've done is what I highlighted in my first post, the whole 'boo hop, cry me a river, women are so much worse of' response. But it has the affect of ignoring an issue relevant to the value of 'equality' that we think is so important. And we wonder why men don't care about feminism? Theres such a narrow 'us & them' culture.

A better approach, IMO, is to acknowledge this discrimination against men. Solving it would help women. More male nurses means less males in typically male dominated industries and more opportunities in those industries for women. Male issues and female issues are linked.

Not relationship violence, though, which is what refuges are for. Yes street violence is a problem, but we were talking about refuge places.

Chivalry isn't just "being nice to women". It comes from an outdated belief that women are frail little flowers who need to be looked after and protected and shouldn't be allowed to make decisions or do things for themselves.

Hold a door open for the person behind you, you don't need to consider their gender to do that. Why don't we just ALL be nice to each other, rather than moaning that you have to be nice to women? And it's a pretty small example of a privilege.

Yes it would be nice to buy a ticket to avoid violence (which men are far more at risk of than woman just to add)

OK because we can all buy tickets to avoid violence

It's a metaphor!

In that cartoon I'd say the shortest child represents women fleeing with children. They are in the greatest need of protection and need the most in terms of input and resources. The middle child would be women fleeing without children. They can share a lot of the resources with women who are fleeing with children which saves time/money. The tallest child would be men fleeing violence, they need protection but typically the support needed is different.

Women who experience emotional/physical abuse experience this in the context of a culture which supports these kind of relationship dynamics, they need a lot of support to undo those messages or their chance of returning to the same or a new abusive relationship is extremely high. Conversely men fleeing violent women tend not to return to abusive relationships in general, while they may have a traumatic bond with their particular abuser just like any abuse victim, there are not the same societal ideas and structures holding it up. He is not usually expected by others to return or to give her another chance, whereas women are often expected to do this. Relationship abuse within same sex relationships is complex and can have strains of the male-on-female "script", the personal cycle of abuse, the gender issues are more complex which is why there is a specific organisation to offer support with this (Broken Rainbow).

" there's a cartoon thing it reminds me of."

The guys in the cartoon should have bought a ticket like everyone else, then they wouldn't need to worry about finding a box high enough to stand on.

"Chivalry?

Really?"

Yes really. People (of both genders) are conditioned from a young age to be nicer to females than to males for no reason other than chivalry.

Right but if you're literally sitting in your house playing single player games day after day then you're probably depressed. Nothing to do with meeting a partner.

That article talks about the reasons why - they're not just opposed to the wording because it doesn't mention women enough, it's about the provision of services. Same issue as refuge is facing now, despite women being in much more urgent need of refuge places, funding is going to male places equally. Hang on, there's a cartoon thing it reminds me of. I don't necessarily agree with their definitions of equality/justice but the cartoon illustrates the point nicely.

Prashad, hate to be the bearer of bad news, but ime men don't face any discrimination in either nursing or teaching. In fact, it's the complete opposite. Men who enter the nursing profession tend to be promoted to management positions with remarkable speed. Few men in the industry, large numbers of them in management positions doesn't speak of discrimination to me. Does it to you? If so, in what way?

Ugly hairy bitter old bat, like all not conventionally good looking feminazis.

Chivalry?

Really?

Did you want to be taken seriously, or can we just snigger ourselves silly at you now?

In all fairness, feminists do seek to sabotage the efforts of MRA movements. For example, a welsh government bill earlier this year that was worded in a gender neutral way so as to acknowledge that both genders suffer domestic abuse.

However, feminists were not happy with this and thought the wording should focus on female victims. See the link: www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-28080585

This is just one example, but I've seen many more where feminists seek to claim an issue as their own and don't like others getting a piece of the pie.

Another I saw was an article commenting on the discrimination men face in teaching, nursing and childcare work. The feminist response seemed to be 'boo hop, cry me a river, woman are so much more disadvantaged in other work areas'. And so on...

Since a central tenet of feminism is that 'men' are responsible for their oppression, it's no surprise to me that they are hostile to any movement that seeks to increase the rights of men. It's sad though, because that behaviour makes it look like they care less about 'equality' as a value, and only about their own interests. It's also sad because IMO gender issues affect both genders and consideration of these issues needs to be less sharply focused. For example, as I've said before... The feminiat issues of the glass ceiling, gendered job roles and pay inequality are directly linked to the MRA issues of paternity leave rights, custody rulings and father's rights. They need to be considered together.

Bertie and Empire

One of the biggest fears for men is to be forever celibate and one of the biggest fears for women is to remain single forever.
From these perceptive it’s easy to see how men and women behave when it comes to relationships.
If all he ever does is play and talk about video games, it doesn’t take a genius to understand he will have far fewer opportunities to meet and be interesting to women.
So telling a man like that to stop talking about video games as much and don’t act desperate when he meets a woman remotely interested in him is not ‘faking’ it. He will still be the same person but this time he knows talking about video games all the time is boring to most people.
At the root of it, a person who shys away from society, ie. video games uses them as an escape because they feel they are a failure.

It’s also stupid to think looks aren’t the most important to men.
Whether some women like it or not, men do settle. When a man doesn’t have options and feels they can’t do any better, they will settle. And that’s what happens to the majority of men.
As for Powerful men, beautiful women, women and the men.
Whilst it’s not robust, powerful men receive most of the benefits of being a man and the rest of the minions/men don’t feel it.
Maybe that’s why most ‘male feminist’ are MC and UC because they can clearly feel the advantage.
That’s why the average man is a bit antagonistic to feminism because he is told he has an advantage when he feels he does not.
That’s why conventionally good looking women aren’t great supporters of feminism.