Is the constant misinterpretation of Feminism ignorance or wilful misunderstanding?

I think it's because it goes against the pattern of language iyswim.

We don't have a word for the people that want gay people to have equal rights, they're just people. The ones that don't are homophobic.

We don't have a word for the people that want all ethnicities/colours to be equal, they're just people. The ones that don't are racist.

We don't have a word for the people that want people with disabilities to be equal, they're just people. The ones that don't are disabalist.

For some reason with feminism it goes the other way. We have a special word for the people that want gender equality and those that don't are just 'people'. I think when we drop the label and just assume the majority of people want gender equality it will be a big step forward. The misogynists (or maybe there is a better term?) should wear the label.

The constant misinterpretation of Feminism is sometimes ignorance and sometimes wilful misunderstanding.

messyisthenewtidy

Zazzle, yes I see your point. But whilst I can see that the finer points of feminism may be up for grabs I've always assumed its main ethos (of equal opportunities) to be pretty established.

I guess as a generalisation for us guys it's often not seen that way. I know I certainly am never sure if it's referring to "female supremacy" or equal opportunities for all. I guess part of it comes down to the media liking to use extremes as those are the stories that get website hits and therefore advertising money. An example would be that idiot guy story linked in one of the other threads saying guys can't help rape if they're turned on. Most guys obviously don't think that way, but it wouldn't sell papers if they had a story saying "Most guys are against rape". So when feminism stories come out they're usually the more extreme ones, so guys feel it's hating them as guys, not equal rights. I guess that's what this He-She campaign is about - focusing on the equal rights side of things.

messyisthenewtidy

I do agree there are lots of cases like that. However what I mean is that guys have the same issues for many things, just a different viewpoint. So switching your good example of science for girls to boys, then it would be the same for nursing or being a teacher for example. So again I would view it as equal opportunities rather than feminism being required.

Yonic

I am no expert in this area, but I would imagine so. However I would expect this to be a lot smaller in younger people? The damage would already be done in the difference for older people (when each difference in the increase gets multiplied many times over the career). Having a look at Wikipedia (which is never wrong!) it says:

"The earnings difference between women and men varies with age, with younger women more closely approaching pay equity than older women.[17]

In 2011, the Bureau of Labor Statistics reported women's median weekly earnings to be 81% of men's.[2]

According to Andrew Beveridge, a Professor of Sociology at Queens College, between 2000 and 2005, young women in their twenties earned more than their male counterparts in some large urban centers, including Dallas (120%), New York (117%), Chicago, Boston, and Minneapolis. A major reason for this is that women have been graduating from college in larger numbers than men, and that many of those women seem to be gravitating toward major urban areas. In 2005, 53% of women in their 20s working in New York were college graduates, compared with only 38% of men of that age. Nationwide, the wages of that group of women averaged 89% of the average full-time pay for men between 2000 and 2005.[18]"

So it seems to say that there is still a difference, but it is smaller for young people. Which could suggest things are getting better, or actually they havenæt changed (since you would expect any pay gap to increase due to the multiplication effect I mentioned earlier...). I guess it's not seperating childless women, although as a generalization the 20-24yr age group would not have too many anyway. However I am no expert on the statistics, so if anyone has better information I'd be happy to hear it. I guess part of it is type of jobs too (i.e. investment banking with a high salary is probably more male oriented compared to nursing being more female oriented and less pay (stupidly in my opinion). Which comes back to the "training" towards careers when growing up.

I presumed that was self explanatory? The discussion was around feminism and if it was ignorance or willful misunderstanding. My points were therefore addressing my opinion that for a lot of guys they view it as equal opportunities. If it helps I mentioned in the other topic that murder etc was unacceptable? However I just assumed no one would consider rape/ guys making stupid excuses that they couldn't help it to be at all ok so it didn't need stating now?

Snow, I believe that the stats show there is a pay gap even for childless women.

I wrote - "in a recent rape survey in Norway, 9% of the women questioned reported that they had been raped. Feminism still has some way to go to end sexual violence against women, even in Norway."

Snow wrote - "The research results also show that as many men as women also have been victims of serious physical violence and domestic violence."

I'd hoped for a response to my comment more along the lines of :
"9% of women in Norway raped is unacceptable and every Norwegian should do all they can to reduce this to zero."

bold: messyisthenewtidy

It obviously benefits both sexes, I think for guys the question is then raised why call it feminism then, when it's for both? This is perhaps for younger people though.

When generalizing there is probably still quite a lot of sexism/ bitterness from older guys who have seen things massively change in their lifetime, and feel they have been getting the blame/ have to change. A lot of this is right, but you're getting told you're wrong and need to change all the time then it's going to be hard to look positively at it. For younger people potentially some of the more obvious issues have been helped quite a lot, so it becomes a bit more blurred (see my post above about things like abortion etc). So then it becomes more of a "why do females get priority over us". Also as a younger generation we are generally more self obsessed (selfies etc), and so it's easier to go into the me versus them view when you're being told you need to change.

An example on a personal level is being at work. Females are under represented higher up/ have lower pay on average. Yet on a personal level I haven't ever considered putting a guy above a girl, so it does become a bit difficult when you get "blamed" because you're a guy. Hope that makes sense? It can be a bit difficult with text sometimes.

Bold: vesuvia The research results also show that as many men as women also have been victims of serious physical violence and domestic violence.

However in one of the other topics here female against male violence didn't seem to matter (in the UK at least), since it was such a small proportion? I'm not wanting this to become an argument of guys versus girls, but just an example of how things can be viewed as being equally applicable.

You say that "Most of the issues that most men think are important are the ones that affect men. Nothing new there." Is that not exactly the same for feminism - it's highlighting important issues for men. Therefore our equivalent as it were? I guess if you have a similar list for guys you could suggest things like: domestic violence, access to children at divorce, contraception (in that it is very hard to guys to stop a long term girlfriend getting pregnant if she wants to - not saying it's common, but is the reverse of contraception for females), abortion is an issue for both, guys also have legal stuff like having no rights if not named the father on the birth certificate which can sometimes happen...

It's not meant as an argumentative list, more that a lot of these issues apply to both sexes, not just one. Or there are equally valid ones for both. We then like to highlight the ones that apply to us. For guys there is not really a name widely used, but for females there is feminism. So guys tend to get frustrated as it seems their issues are being downplayed. That said, as mentioned feminism generally has a bad name so it's not really better on the other side of the fence.

Bold:"I think that the main problem with feminism now (yes, I'm a guy) is that it has got very close to males in terms of equal rights. "

Woot woot!

Hang on, you said this was a problem?

Sorry, I didn't mean it in that way, hopefully obviously! I was more looking at it in guys struggling to see it being very relevant in the western world as a "separate" topic, rather than equal rights for both sexes.

Obviously there is things like the pay gap, but I do think that can be helped a lot by giving guys more responsibility for paternity leave/ more time looking after kids when divorced etc. If we assume 2-3 years of "lost" worktime used to look after the kids when they're young, then that is 2-3 years of less work experience. And if the majority of the time females are doing these tasks then when it comes to a job interview/ promotion then all else being equal the extra experience will count for more. If parental time off work is split 50/50 between mum and dad then less experience isn't a factor for pay/ managerial jobs. The other option is just giving people equal pay despite the one who is at home/ taking time off work having less direct work experience over time. But this is probably going off topic.

Snow1 wrote - "The main problem with feminism now (yes, I'm a guy) is that it has got very close to males in terms of equal rights. That said, I'm in Norway which is one of the best countries in the world for it."

For women, Norway may be a better place than many others, but things may not be as rosy for women in Norway as you may like to think. For example, in a recent rape survey in Norway, 9% of the women questioned reported that they had been raped. Feminism still has some way to go to end sexual violence against women, even in Norway.

Snow1 wrote - "it comes down to guys thinking most of the issues in the west are more related to consumerism etc, rather than being a female only issue."

Most of the issues that most men think are important are the ones that affect men. Nothing new there.

In the western world, major issues for feminists include rape, sexual harassment, abortion, contraception, and the disconnect between legal rights on paper and legal rights in practice. There is enough there to keep many feminists busy with these issues for quite a while. These problems will not be reduced or eliminated if feminists shift their focus away from women.

Buffy those postcards are brilliant, thank you for linking to them.

I think there is another aspect to it as well, some people feel that feminism has got too big and that they appear to be oh so smart for going against the grain. The same as people who say they hate e.g. Stephen Fry or someone else that most other people like, just to appear original.

"I think that the main problem with feminism now (yes, I'm a guy) is that it has got very close to males in terms of equal rights. "

Woot woot!

Hang on, you said this was a problem?