Is the constant misinterpretation of Feminism ignorance or wilful misunderstanding?

Agreed Puffin.

Not feeding the GF seems sensible advice here.

You seem to abhor rape, yet you are clearly in favour of porn. You do realise that a large proportion of porn depicts rape, don't you? As in, actual rape, not "just" pretend rape.

So you believe violence and sexual exploitation are good qualities to expect in a person? And yet you have been the victim of abuse and know the havoc that can wreak? I am confused, are you saying the abuse you suffered is a bad thing but the abuse that people suffer in porn or at the hands of people who are violent are good things?

it will be forever difficult to disassociate feminism with emotional and financial abuse of those I care about and physical and emotional violence directed against me as a child.

You blame feminism for abuse? I am curious to know why that is, but of course if you'd rather not say I understand.

Buffy

Nobody is born feminist. I hate people for the choices they have made, not for the nature of their birth.

Nobody is born a rapist. It is a choice that a person makes that sets them forever outside the boundaries of what I'd call human. Hating rapists and abusers is an entirely legitimate response. Hating those who share birth-derived characteristics with the rapists and abusers would be immature.

I struggle to be open-minded and suppress the prejudicial beliefs I have as a result of my experiences, but for some like me it will be forever difficult to disassociate feminism with emotional and financial abuse of those I care about and physical and emotional violence directed against me as a child.

It's very interesting to me that the exact same idioms and memes are used about feminists now as were used against the Suffragists.

On the subject on man hating - I can honestly say that I've rarely seen anything written by a feminist which is man hating. It might be critical of men as a class, but there's little hate. The hate seems to mostly come from anti feminist men and women. Most feminist separatists seem to just ignore men, and that REALLY pisses them off!

Hating an entire group of people because of a few "toxic experiences" strikes me as somewhat immature.

I've been raped, by more than one man, I also have a father who couldn't give a shit about me, I've been harassed and groped by men and told I didn't deserve an education by men. I don't hate men, not at all. I suppose I have good reason to hate them but I don't. I can understand that while some men are rapists, some men are misogynistic pigs, some men are downright nasty evil shitheads, a lot of men are kind and caring and lovely to be around.

I'm absolutely staggered by the hate and fear in those postcards linked at the beginning of the thread. Will now read the rest of it.

are they just being ignorant of what it really is or are they wilfully misunderstanding in a conscious attempt to dismiss it?

Some of them have had profoundly toxic experiences with feminists in their lives, to the point that believing in egalitarianism requires an active struggle and feminism is associated with intense hatred and misery.

Thanks Puffins!

I should be working, but all my energy is going into MN. I can't tell you what a wonderful feeling it has been to feel so at home in the F(WR) section - it's like speaking having to speak French (badly) all your life then finally finding a group of people who speak English! I can express myself!

cailin.... you're on fire recently, so many great posts!

Snow, you might want to revisit your post about mental illness and have a bit of a goggle for some facts. Because it was light on those.

"It's more an observation from anecdotal evidence, but I know a lot of guys have raised this question. The general outline is that in a long term relationship if you are insisting to still wear them you will get questioned about lack of trust. You would only wear them to stop the other person getting pregnant, or getting an STD. Either says "I don't trust you" and so will destroy the relationship in practice. I know a lot of guys who have suspicions that their partner "accidentally" got pregnant. I mentioned it in the list of things as I saw a discussion about it recently on a male dominated forum. The question was about did the person feel ready to be a dad, and it seemed to be that a lot of posters said no, but their partner had got pregnant anyway (they also pretty much all said it turned out to be the best thing that had happened to them, but that's a bit off topic). The other stereotype is some women getting pregnant to try and save a dying relationship."

Thanks for answering my question Snow. You say "a lot of guys...have suspicions that their partner "accidentally" got pregnant." How does that happen? How does a woman get pregnant on her own?
You seem to be coming from a standpoint that PIV sex is absolutely inevitable in a relationship, even a relationship where the man doesn't trust the woman, and that if the woman "accidentally" gets pregnant well that's the same as "accidentally" falling down the stairs - an unfortunate side effect of day to day life, because you can't avoid stairs, can you?
My question is, if these guys were so afraid of pregnancy why weren't they taking steps to avoid it, either by refusing to have sex without a condom, refusing to have sex at all, or ending the relationship, given that they couldn't trust their partner? It was by no means inevitable that this situation would end in pregnancy. The only way a woman could be pregnant with their child would be to have unprotected sex with her, which is an active choice made by the man.

I think that should say 148 out of 160 MPs are men.

If you seriously believe women aren't oppressed in western society catkind, then there's no point in even engaging with feminism. To use your own analogy, you're basically coming along to Christians and saying Jesus didn't exist.

30% gender pay gap, 148 out of 160 MPs are women, 1 in 4 women will be sexually assaulted during their lifetimes (and yes, some men get assaulted too - but interesting the vast majority of the perpetrators in both cases are men), only a tiny fraction of rapes make it as far as a successful conviction (but any attempt to talk about the reasons for this attracts vast swathes of idiots who want to talk about the even smaller fraction of false rape accusations), we don't legally have abortion on demand (two doctors have to sign to say it's needed for medical reasons)... yes, everything in the garden is rosy, isn't it.

Oh well, as the old adage has it, "you can't argue with stupid".

Ahh right.

OK.

When one gender was oppressed then yes it was a useful label and a fantastic movement that achieved a lot. And I appreciate in some places that is still the case.

If you're saying in the western culture we (or I at least) live in one gender is oppressed then I disagree. There's a lot of sexism, it goes both ways, and much of it comes from over-classification, so I don't think more classification is the answer.

But that doesn't make sense catkind when one gender is oppressed. How are you supposed to emphasise that, highlight it, work towards sorting it out if you don't name it?

I think the problem is "feminism" is about as well defined a thing as "christianity". Different people mean different things by it, albeit with a common theme. You can't say "no that's wrong that's not what feminism is" any more than you can say "no that's not what christians believe".

I'm very vocal for equality. A major tenet for me is that we should be seen as people first not constantly labelled by our gender. So a label for believing in equality that itself selects by gender does not work for me personally. Language makes a difference.

^ that should be 'cheating partners', not parents

Or... it could be that the person believes in equal rights, but does not agree with the theoretical premises of feminism (the patriarchy, male privilege, etc).

The issue is that there's a lot of crossover between feminists and man haters.

Sure, there are loads of feminist who love men, and loads of man-haters that don't identify as feminism... but naturally, there's a big crossover.

If you have been screwed over by men in your life, it's natural (if not logical) to paint all men with the same brush and to be hostile to them as a group. How many times have we heard the exclamation "Men!" when some woman has been wronged by one, how many times have we heard a woman declare that she's "had enough of men!" when she's been cheated on repeatedly? Feminism has parallels with this in the sense that they consider 'men' to be a class or group (not saying that's wrong, mind).

Likewise, if you have been hurt by men throughout your life (abusive father, cheating parents, absent father's to your own children, sexist boss, etc) then you might have a negative attitude towards men that would naturally compel you to think about broader issues in which men oppress and hurt you.

As I said earlier, there are a lot of feminists who arrive at feminism for other reasons, and a lot of women who've had bad experiences who have not found feminism. But given this crossover, some women might not want to identify as feminist because they fear being seen as man-haters... and a lot of people might not be fond of feminism because they assume it is about man-hating.