Is the constant misinterpretation of Feminism ignorance or wilful misunderstanding?

Yes you do keep harping on your point, nojacket but you're not really in much of a position to speak for women who don't engage in FWR, are you? It's not so much a question of misunderstanding your point, more like not caring about it.

Is the constant misinterpretation of Feminism ignorance or wilful misunderstanding?

What about the third option, as expressed in the recent discussions about why more women don't engage in FWR? (and I know I keep harping back to it, but I think it is relevant). Women lurk here, read here, follow the arguments here, and simply don't agree with the interpretations that feminism provides. Are feminists wilfully misunderstanding this?

slarti I am expressing how little sympathy I have for your bleating about how feminists make you infuriated or offended. Was I not clear?

Great post, Buffy.

vesuvia

You've created a position and attributed it to me (unfairly so, I would say). I said I support equality, I didn't claim it has already been achieved. I don't reject the phrase "men as a class" because I want to perpetuate an illusion that there are no inequalities between the sexes (if that were true then I wouldn't support equality, would I), I reject it because it seems like a clumsy and offensive way to address the issue.

Of course you don't have to accept that some men feel like that, and you don't have to care about it even if you accept that they do, but then that could well be part of the problem in the OP.

Flora: Oh dear. Poor you. From all the inequity that has occurred as a result of male violence against women, this is the worst phrase yiu have come across? Poor, poor you.

And your baiting remarks are meant to achieve what, exactly?

By the way, where did the idea that all things in every class or group have to be identical, originate?

My understanding is that the fundamental feature of a class or group is that its members are similar, not necessarily identical. The identical part is only an optional subset of being similar.

Slarti wrote - "I oppose and would not engage in any sort of violence against women or anything similar. It's on that basis that I find "men as a class" to be one of the single most infuriating phrases I've ever come across."

The feminist use of "men as a class", or its unpopular shorthand form "men", is usually misinterpreted/misunderstood to mean "all men".

On behalf of men (presumably all men?), some people object to the concept of "men as a class", because men are not all the same. The objectors think it's unacceptable to use "men as a class" in feminist analysis of two classes: "men as a class" at the top, and "women as a class" at the bottom (the gender hierarchy).

A consequence of insisting that "men" is not a gender class, because there are differences between individual men, is that this view ultimately contributes to the illusion that men and women already have equal gender status. (I think this illusion of equality is harmful to women and girls).

Refusal to accept that men are a class, therefore claiming that men and women are already equal, is a tactic often used by people, who want to spread their belief that feminism is unreasonable, unfair, obsolete or has "gone too far".

I find "men as a class" to be one of the single most infuriating phrases I've ever come across.

Oh dear. Poor you. From all the inequity that has occurred as a result of male violence against women, this is the worst phrase yiu have come across? Poor, poor you.

snow I would, and indeed did, think 'great - my boyfriend is totally cool with condoms which means I don't have to fill my body with artificial hormones or undergo invasive medical procedures, and we won't get pregnant'.

We discussed contraception as a couple early on and agreed what would work for us both.

I was so happy that he was taking his part in contraception, amongst other considerate and mature behaviours, that i married him and we continued to use condoms until we together decided to TTC, and we now have two planned sons and are trying for a third child.

My DH has always been careful about contraception in earlier relationships, as have I always insisted on condoms with my previous partners (taking the MAP twice when I wasn't sure it hadn't split) and oddly I've never been pregnant without wanting to be and he has never got a woman pregnant before me. Neither of us has had an STI either.

He made it clear he didn't want a baby before he was in a long term relationship/married, took responsibility for his part in contraception every time he had sex, and got his wish.

His care over contraception didn't cost him any relationships, didn't have any negative physical or emotional consequences for him or his partners (as far as he knows) and on the contrary has always as far as he tells me been well received by his partners.

Ultimately, if a man really doesn't want to get his partner pregnant he has options: no PIV sex, or use a condom. If a man does not either abstain or use a condom, he is consenting to the risk his partner gets pregnant as even if she's on the pill if she has been ill or missed a dose or taken it late, it may still be possible for her to conceive.

Women can't get themselves pregnant, it always takes two. If a man is casual about pregnancy risks he has no one to blame but himself.

buffy: Funny how these men are so keen to associate themselves with men-as-a-class when that class is doing something they're flattered to be included in. Yet when it's things like sexual abuse, not so much. Men are all individuals then hmm

How can you be so sure it's the same menL seems more likely that it would be the men who didn't think like that who objected to "men as a class".

Personally I find Mark's views very alien and would question how widespread they are outside of the ruling classes. I can't imagine considering that I "created or won society" on the basis of my gender and certainly wouldn't begrudge equality to women on the back of such a misperceived status. I support equality because it's right, plain and simple, same as I oppose and would not engage in any sort of violence against women or anything similar. It's on that basis that I find "men as a class" to be one of the single most infuriating phrases I've ever come across.

Think you're not wrong that this underpins male domination of society. It's unusually honest for you to say that you felt the class privilege that flows from that and you viewed women as subordinate. I agree with you that many men also feel this way. Many women also understand this which is why they adjust their behaviour to avoid male violence and domination. However when women want to talk about this, suddenly all men are individuals and are not acting as a class nor benefitting as a class from violence enacted by other men. Except they are.

Well, what can i say, i'm not defending it. I think it was largely due to the physical thing, the feeling that underpinning all of society was men's ability to organise violence. Perhaps i expected to be drawn into that as an adult knowing that I wouldn't be if i were not a man.

Quite.

Hard to believe anyone would actually think that, especially as a young man. I mean, what had you created, won or defended when you had those thoughts?

Oh it's definitely just above the sub conscious which is why it comes out after alcohol is taken.

I think its more than wilful ignorance markhiem going off your description (which I think is chillingly accurate), it is a realisation that society benefits them and they either don't want to do anything to change the dynamic or don't have to do anything to keep the dynamic. And I think it is just above the sub-conscious i.e. they can push it down into their sub-conscious when it suits and bring it out when it suits. Basically society suits them just the way it is.

"...it seems like women suffer because of their gender, men do not, I think it is as simple as that." Yep. Gender is a hierarchy with women at the bottom.

well - that's an interesting question, but i suppose in general it would be "growing up", thinking for myself and meeting many wonderful and talented women. I could go on about how the majority of people are weakened and disenfranchised by the above description of a "society". I think nowadays that some women hang their own personal failings on "the patriarchy" but no more so than men who will blame their situations on their upbringing, social class etc. The main need for feminism to me is to end the sexualisation and exploitation of women. It grates on me too when you hear men posting on these forums saying "but men suffer from violence and intimidation as well". and "aren't these humanist issues" When you have a situation, where groups of people of one sex routinely seek out and abuse those of another, which they must at some level feel entitled to do, then you have a gender issue. What am I saying.....it seems like women suffer because of their gender, men do not, I think it is as simple as that.

So what changed your mind, mark?

Sorry - so to answer that actual question - it is willful ignorance on the part of some men at least.

I'm a man - and this is what i used to think (when i was a young man). It boils down to the fact that men regard the society we live in as something they created, they either won it or defend it by the orchestration of violence on a massive scale. Internally the rules and laws of the country are also enforced by the application of organised violence - a monopoly which belongs to the state. Women are allowed to enter this society or have a say in how it is run because men let them, if men didn't let them - they cannot take what the want by force because they are weaker. Because they are weaker men do no respect them as much as they respect other men.

To men like me (when i was younger) Feminism is something engaged in by women who are bitter about the above interpretation of social history. They hate men but at the same time need men (see the organisation and application of violence) to end violence and discrimination against them, which is a difficult position for anyone to be in.

I am sorry, i hope you wont give me too much of a hard time for being honest i believe that many men will think something like the above. From an early age you know, i learned that the word "girly" was a pejorative.

I think I can see where you're coming from, Catkin. Perhaps the problem lies in the every day meaning of oppression. Say "oppression" and most people think of people being denied civil rights under a totalitatian regime, murdered for their religion, enlaved purely because of the colour of their skin. And to then put the life of the average white woman under this heading can easily come across as bonkers. (I'll get to why I don't think it is - bear with me!)

But at the same time, Buffy is absolutely right. We have a society which systematically channels women into certain roles (arts and humanities good, sciences, engineering, construction not so much so) and exerts subtle pressure from a very early age (lego friends versus lego technics, online shopping sites which when you type in "boys' science toys" throw up 100 hits with exciting stuff, and when you type "girls' science toys", throw up 3 along the lines of "make your own bath bombs.") There's also stereotype threat - constantly tell a subset of the population that they're no good at x and they will underperform at task x (you can do this with a class of kids by telling the blue eyed kids they're no good at maths - if you then give them a maths test, they'll underperform). And girls are constantly given messages that they're no good at maths, no good at science, no good at engineering, and they internalise this. And then that same society introduces pay differentials where "men's" jobs pay better than "women's" jobs.

Now I guess it might be easy if, say, you're a woman who is drawn towards a socially acceptable career like nursing or primary teaching to go through life thinking "but I haven't experienced these barriers in my way that feminists keep banging on about". But from my own personal experience in STEM professions, I'd say that every step of the way from primary school onwards I've been aware of the fact that there are many people who think I'm odd, wrong, misplaced, etc. for wanting to pursue my interests - I've been aware of subtle and not so subtle pressure that I just don't fit from a very early age.

So maybe the problem is with the word "oppression" - maybe "pressure" would be a less in-your-face version. But I'm not sure I'm happy with going there. Because I think women in say sub Saharan Africa at risk of FGM, being stoned to death for "adultery" (which might in fact be rape), or women in India being raped on the way to the toilet, or girls in Afghanistan being murdered for attempting to go to school really are being oppressed under any understanding of the word. And though my life is incredibly cushy by comparison, I think it's important to remember that the underlying cause for inequalities suffered by women in comfortably off western countries (being paid less than men, for instance) is the same - an entrenched belief held by a lot of people that women aren't full human beings (I'm afraid that's the only interpretation I can put, for instance, on people who insist that "women are equal but different" - i.e. "I'm perfectly happy with you doing what you want so long as it's appropriately feminine"). This judgement that women are not quite as important members of the human race is the one being made when women are murdered for going to school and also (although the consequences are not as horrific) paid less than men for equivalent work.

There have been many different definitions for feminism.

Some of the most enduring, and therefore arguably the ones that mean most to feminists are:

Feminism is the radical notion that women are people. - Marie Shear

I myself have never been able to find out what feminism is; I only know that people call me a feminist whenever I express sentiments that differentiate me from a doormat. - Rebecca West

Feminism is concerned with women's liberation from patriarchy. - can't find the source, which is odd, because it was saved on my computer yes DS, I'm looking at you and your fondness for deleting things randomly