Is the constant misinterpretation of Feminism ignorance or wilful misunderstanding?

Slarti:

Of course you are entitled to your own opinions. You gave two of them:

1. You said that you found the phrase "men as a class" infuriating and offensive.

1. You said that you did not find feminism infuriating and offensive.

I pointed out that even your own definition of feminism relied on the concept of "men as a class", so these two opinions are contradictory.

Either my argument is wrong (if so, how?), one of your two statements is false (but I note that you haven't retracted either), or your opinions are self-contradictory. The self-contradiction is what means they are wrong - not whether or not you agree with me. You are correct that feminism doesn't have a monopoly on truth but, unless there's a flaw in my argument, your opinions taken together cannot be any form of the truth. Can you point out a flaw?

It was a bit strong to infer that you are not intelligent based on one contradiction in your belief system, though, agreed. Apologies.

I think you are correct to bow out of the conversation at this point. The only productive direction it could go in would be for one of us to discover a flaw in my reasoning. I don't think that's possible in this case. If you do find such a flaw, happy to continue.

flora whose posts suggest men's feelings are something to point and laugh at

NAM

speverend thanks so much for femsplaining that to me and rejecting my request that you accept that I know my own mind. I should point out though that I agree with a poster upthread who said feminism doesn't have a monopoly on truth. We are all entitled to our opinions and just because mine is different to yours doesn't make me ununintelligent or dishonest. If you genuinely want to consider the question posed by the OP then an honest analysis of your own posts might be a good place to start.

The same goes for flora whose posts suggest men's feelings are something to point and laugh at, and that any dissenting voices should be met with rudeness and aggression. That's your prerogative, but don't pretend the negative opinions people go on to form are wilfully ignorant.

And buffy, sorry but I can't take anyone seriously who commends the baiting and taunting flora has engaged in whilst trying to claim I'm playing some sort of game. My opinion on the phrase "men as a class" might not be one you agree with, hell it might even be wrong (I'm able to comprehend that possibility), but that doesn't mean I'm playing a game fgs.

Anyway I'll bow out now as this doesn't seem to be about discussion or debate but about "winning".

Thank you Buffy.

I pointed out that your definition of feminism cannot be stated without using "men as a class" or a similar phrase, and hence that your claim to find the phrase offensive is irreconcilable with not finding feminism (by your own definition) offensive.

That is only a logical deduction from your statements. It is only telling you what you think if your thoughts are logically consistent and your statements here are true reflections of your thinking. I did assume those two things in my post, and you are right to criticise me for failing to state them. I apologise for assuming that you were both intelligent and honest.

Slarti if you or any other man comes into a discussion with feminists about feminism or male violence against women and feel it is appropriate to discuss how the terminology used makes you offended, you can expect someone will point and laugh. This is MN / FWR, you know that right? Not every utterance gets treated with respect.

You're going to need to get over yourself / this if you want to have a serious discussion. Otherwise it just looks like you can't handle it without making it all about your feelings.

Great! Next time flora doesn't give a fuck about something she can tell you and you can high five each other

I see I'm still being told what I think. I'm perfectly capable of knowing my own mind so I'd respectfully request that other people accept that. Has anyone ever coined the term "femsplaining"? The constant "right, let me tell you what you really mean" is getting tedious.

And really flora, nobody gives a fuck that you don't give a fuck. Nobody posts for your benefit or approval. Perhaps it's time to get over yourself.

slarti you are free to post what you want and I've never said otherwise. I'm free to tell you you're wrong / I don't give a fuck what you think / etc. I haven't said anything to the contrary, although I've made it clear I don't give a fuck about your feelings (not actually the same thing as saying what you can and can't post).

speverend (great name) has it when it comes to the particulars.

catkind equality is shorthand. There's more to it than that.

Slarti: I said I find the phrase offensive. Flora said I find "feminism" offensive. "Exactly the words Florafox attributed to you" is just plainly false isn't it, so why say it?

You said feminism is about equality. You acknowledged that we do not currently have equality between sexes (your post on 23-Nov-14 at 21:21:10). How can you assert that there is inequality between two groups if you don't accept the groups as separate in order to consider whether or not they are equal? You can't - so even your definition of feminism implies the existence of "men as a class". So finding the phrase "men as a class" to be offensive would seem equivalent to finding feminism offensive (unless you mean that something like "men as a group" should be used instead of "men as a class", in the same sense that we talk about "black people" rather than using racist epithets).

Of course there are sub-classes of men and women that also exhibit inequality between themselves (ethnic groups, for example). I believe the concept is referred to as intersectionality. But if you are saying that these sub-classifications are more significant than the male/female classification then you're talking about anti-racism or improved social mobility or something of that nature. Which is fine and worthy, but isn't feminism.

Either you accept that there are meaningful differences between men's experiences and women's experiences (and hence that men and women can be considered as separate classes), or you say that there is no meaningful difference (and hence that men and women have equality, all other social factors being equal). The former case you find offensive; the latter you accept is not true.

Back to those different brands of feminism. Most self-identifying feminists I know define feminism as a belief in gender equality.

You can offend as many people as you like, but then you don't get to tell us we're willfully misunderstanding when we decline to sign up for feminism. Or that we don't care about equality, or that we don't care about rape. I can't believe someone actually said that

Oh and for the sexists among you, I'm female. Wouldn't like you to think this discussion was lining up along gender lines. Someone might over-generalise.

You seem to be under the illusion that you get to decide who can post what and under what circumstances. I think you just need to accept that some people hold different opinions to you and getting worked up and aggressive doesn't achieve anything.

slarti it rather appears that you do care since you keep going on about it.

Whether equality is core to feminism is a whole other subject. Many feminists seek liberation from oppression and male domination and don't see that as the same as equality within a patriarchal construct. Not that that has anything to do with you moaning about feminists using terms you find offensive.

I don't remember asking you to give a fuck flora. Again I'm a bit stumped as to why you felt the need to tell me this. Do people often give a fuck abut you not giving a fuck?

Oh, and equality is core to feminism imo.

Analysis of men as a class is core to feminism. Women naming and analysing their experience is core to feminism. Women giving a fuck whether you find anything offensive - not core to feminism.

Speverend I said I find the phrase offensive. Flora said I find "feminism" offensive. "Exactly the words Florafox attributed to you" is just plainly false isn't it, so why say it?

I don't find feminism offensive. What I do find offensive is having my own account of my position repeatedly dismissed and being told what I think.

catkind I'm not surprised you are aligned with slarti in finding class analysis offensive since you don't agree with feminist analysis on a class basis, by which I mean women and men. "Sex attackers" is not a class.

Surely which class label is appropriate depends on the subject under discussion? If you're talking about testicular cancer, "men" is a very relevant class to discuss. If we're talking about rape, I would find it pretty offensive to regard "men as a class" as the problem - the vast majority of men are not potential rapists. The class you're looking for there is "sex attackers". It's this sort of mis-classification that leads to silliness like parents not feeling comfortable with male nursery workers.

Erm, because you said what you think? You said the term "men as a class" is infuriating, clumsy and offensive. Naming and analysing the behaviour of "men as a class" is at the core of feminism.

Slarti - you described the term "men as a class" as infuriating in your post of 20.09 on 22/11/2014, and as offensive in your post at 21.21 on 23/11/2014. Which are exactly the words FloraFox attributed to you.

Flora I'm not offended by feminism. Not actually sure why you keep telling me what I think. Bit odd.

So, um, in the end, it seems to come down to exercise of privilege and willful misunderstanding then. Another conundrum sorted.

slarti you've said yourself you find "men as a class" infuriating and offensive. I'm not infuriated by you, I see men being infuriated and offended by feminism all the time. Just as with you, I have no sympathy for them.

HTH