Feminist Pub 14: The Bluestocking, a place for feminist chat and feminists to chat

The woman at the centre of the UVa gang rape allegations has been named on Twitter, by a man who thinks he's some sort of hero for doing it.

There are now discussions between the various MRE groups about what they're going to 'do with her'. There's already talk of sending her to the morgue.

Why? No criminal case was brought, no names named and yet they are talking about killing her.

But there's no need for feminism anymore, because all the battles have been won.

Oh. Well, I was going to slouch in for a quick drink before getting back to work - it's a bit like my RL local in here tonight, after a few people hit the booze a bit hard and got all earnest and sweary

Anyway, I have to go and finish a report on changes needed to an obscure piece of legislation before the bit of the public service I work in has its arse sued off it by the right test case. I was supposed to finish my report earlier but got distracted by making a tiny Christmas tree from Lego for the Shelf Elf, and decorating it with teeny gauze balls, stick on jewels, cut out snowflakes and mini candy canes. I wish I knew how to post a picture, it's a tour de force. As I'm sure my report will also be by morning...

Right, I'm off.

"How is it possible to feel 'sisterly' with such a person? "

this isn't about your feelings, it's about what you say

" Perhaps you would like to come up with something else?" no not really, but if you are remotely swayed by my points, maybe you would like to come up with something that doesn't sound like old school patriarchal sexual humiliation. Up to you of course.

"One person remarked to me recently that the Mean Girls in the office can't even be nice to each other, on an ongoing basis. " so there is an acknowledged posse of Mean Girls, whom you and at least one other person don't like and talk about as a group, and as Other. If I were you I would be asking myself very stringently what my part in this dynamic is. You don't have to ask yourself in front of us, of course.

"And Empire is absolutely correct in that it is a double edged sword" yes, as was I when I made that point too, and was kind of suggesting that you are wrong if you see her as someone who holds all the cards and is cheating their way to certain victory.

Look I am bowing out now, this is your work place, your relationship, your dynamic, you know all about it, and i know nothing. Lord knows I am no stranger to tense and frustrated work relationships, and they can send you a bit loopy and to forget your better judgement. But seriously, and these are the last things I am going to say on the matter:

• using "fuckable" of a woman as an insult is beyond dodgy and in this context made me actually wince

• wild guesses here but it sounds like you are entrenching a polarised "you sexy and bad, me serious and grumpy and good" dynamic that is doing you no favours. I mean I am not talking about feminism now but about honest direct relationships of integrity in which all parties can be as good as they can be. I know you are going to say something like "but there is no good in her, there is no possibility of integrity" - but there is. You can have integrity, and it will be the best thing for you in the long term and perhaps even in the short term you can flip this dynamic into something healthier. On the other hand, in the context of the other stuff you have been saying about this work place, if absolutely everyone is incompetent, lazy and stupid and violently sexist, then maybe your scope of influence here is limited; maybe that is what is fucking with your head and making things like "fuckable" seems acceptable; maybe you should consider your options.

THE END

I am off now because this is not a thread on which I wanted to have to have an argument like that

Eilis I agree, its not a nice term, and I make no excuses for coining the term either. Perhaps you would like to come up with something else? I am not asking you to use the term, and I agree with Fibonacci - I can assure you there is no 'sisterly' feeling between this woman and any of the other women in the office. She sees us all as 'competition' to overcome, something (no not someone, something) to dominate, and as objects, not people. She is the quintessential Mean Girl. How is it possible to feel 'sisterly' with such a person? One person remarked to me recently that the Mean Girls in the office can't even be nice to each other, on an ongoing basis. They are similarly horrible to the people they profess to be friends with, as with those they don't like. How do you maintain a 'sisterly' connection with people like that?

And Empire is absolutely correct in that it is a double edged sword. The Fuckable Blonde is a cautionary tale to other women who might see this as a viable tactic to take in our male dominated corporate world.

I can see how one would be exasperated at being shafted by a system that doesn't recognise your work, while it does recognise that of someone flirtier than you. But that's the system, it wasn't invented by the flirty one. Yes you can nobly refuse to engage with that (and i have always avoided tht route not from nobility, but from fear - men hate and resent women they fancy and flirt with almost more than those they don't - though it is expressed in different ways at different times - and I instinctively didn't feel equal to opening that can of worms. Sometimes it wasn't my choice though as to whether the whole swx thing would rear its ugly head. All in the past as I am an old boot now so it doesn't come up)

but I still think we need to be really careful about the language we use about other women.

You can feel critical without calling someone a "Fuckable Blonde".

Am I really the only one who is so uncomfortable with that?

Without justifying it I can completely understand how an amibitious woman channels her ambition into work, and making sure she looks "perfect", and running the two endeavours side by side as if one and the same. Any working woman who doesn't worry about how she looks is very unusual and very sophisticated emotionally and politically. and probably also very good looking ;) You might think that the amount of energy going into being skinny is misplaced and sad and I would agree. it wouldn't make me hate the person doing it. honestly I would find it hard to assure a woman, in a heart to heart, that if she stopped doing it, it would not realistically damage her prospects, in some fields.

I have been on the receiving end of "you can't look like that AND be intelligent" more times than I care to remember (although it's certainly tapering off now that I'm getting into middle age) so you won't hear me criticise other women for liking to look pretty. That is not a problem per se, but I personally have been professionally harmed by another woman in my team who lay it off rather thick in terms of flirting with the menfolk. Her work was good, but my work was better. Yet, the ranking system at work meant that one of us had to end up above the other, and guess who that was. So I am willing to admit that maybe I was just jealous or resentful - I'm not that certain of myself as to dismiss that possibility, but at the time, particularly given that I believe that women should help each other in a male dominated work environment, I felt betrayed because I felt that the flirting and the eyelash batting and the casual hand on the arm helped her get ahead, and that sucks for those of us who, while still being nice to people at work, draw a line at flirting with management.

But do help me out here - is the feminist choice to make to embrace that kind of thing as "free choice"? Was she just one step ahead in colluding with the patriarchy and is that kind of behaviour acceptable? For me I guess the rule of thumb is "are the men doing it?" and nope, I don't see it happening, not even with female managers.

Come on it's indefensible. And makes us all look bad too if this sort of hatefulness is "excused" by "feminism".

Anyone in mainstream job is playing the game, colluding with patriarchy to some extent, drawing their own personal lines as to how far they will go to earn a living / do well / compete.

This woman has been told her whole life that looking good, a certain way, is important or necessary to be accepted and encouraged by society. It's sickeningly double edged though because while some men will only hold a conversation with her because she looks like that, others (or the same ones) will also despise her for it and consider it makes her "fuckable" (seriously? that's a word, we can use about other women, as an insult, because of the way they look? What does that mean? that we despise her because she might do sex? or might like sex? or men might want to do sex with her, which makes her despicable... why? and how close is "fuckable" to suggesting something like "always consenting, or need for consent suspended".... and what does that mean if women, soi disant feminists, think that we can say that about a woman because she is slim and blonde and dolled up?)

I have been many bright young women at work, with a penchant for dolling up, being dismissed by men and women as if dolling up is incompatible with intelligence. For heaven's sake let's not be doing that on this board of all places.

I do not think for one moment that this woman has single handedly "perpetuated beauty standards" to anyone's significant disadvantage. If she's doing well - for whatever reasons - there's a potential ally. Maybe not, if you really don't like her, or like her working style. but you can make those judgements without sneering about someone being too "fuckable"

The expression is certainly, eh, interesting, but...do we have to be sisterly with the women that align themselves with the patriarch, helping perpetuate beauty standards in order to get ahead, at a bit personal (not eating!) and group (the other women who have to stand by and watch them get promoted) cost?

Very uncomfortable with the unsisterly tone re "TPMFB". What a nasty expression.

Oh Fibonacci, I forgot to mention, in an effort to be a size 2 or 4, The Patriarchy's Most Fuckable Blonde does not appear to eat . In the 2 months I have been there, she seems to exist on those packet cuppa-soups that you buy from the supermarket. She said she was going to buy a sandwich for lunch the other day - I nearly fell off my chair .

There are some downsides to being who she is, and its not just the not eating thing (I am starting to wonder if she has an eating disorder). She is the sort of personality type who has to 'control' everything in her world - a tiring and difficult way to live life. This one too will probably benefit from the status as Miss Fuckability, but there are also many downsides to that portrayal. And believe me, it is a portrayal, a facade .

Parking did you also tell him to cover the offending rag with a large sheet, so that no one had to see any sneaky shots of cats bum mouths and rampant NIMBYism?

Zazzles, I used to work with someone exactly like that. It bugs me enormously to admit that she benefitted professionally a lot (management were all men).

I love clothes and shoes as well, but really don't like or buy fashion magazines any more (unless I am flying, and the travel agent has mucked up my flight details, resulting in me flying out 3 hours later than expected ). Tbh, I am tired of the consumerism that women have been encouraged to take on, in the efforts to catch the male gaze. Over the years, I have toned down my professional look more and more, so that it is less and less and less about the male gaze, and more and more about functionality, comfort, and most importantly, looking polished and professional.

However, there is one young woman in the office who is yet to learn this lesson (as well as many other lessons): I have dubbed her "The Patriarchy's Most Fuckable Blonde" (apologies to those who are also blonde, but do not fit this particular description, as this woman's Blondeness, is a key factor in her Fuckability). She would be a size 2 or 4 (UK sizes), and on occasions, the men buzzing around her desk is like.... well I don't want to say. She portrays herself as "The Woman Men Should Aspire to be With", "The Woman Other Women Should Aspire to Be", and is definitely A Mean Girl. What she doesn't realise is that there are some women in the office who have definitely twigged on to her game, and have figured her out, play for play

Hello!

Only brief visit to give verdicts (because I'm worth it):

parking YWNBU to tell ukip voter to sit in corner.

fibonacci YABU to expect great depth and insight from Vogue.

HTH

Anyway. Busy day. More busy day tomorrow. But all good. Had arguments about social justice, some feminist, but mostly not. Hope everyone else is having a nice weekend!

Oh yes, IWBTU to expect anything from Vogue UK. To be fair to myself, I'd stopped buying it years ago when that arsehole AA Gill wrote about someone's atrocious table manners and said it was because his mother was Spanish.

Unrelatedly, there is (quite genuinely) a ukip voter reading the daily mail in my front room. Wibu to ask him to sit in the corner, so i don't have to see it?!

Oops, sorry, took ages for my post to go through and now it doesn't make sense.

Thanks, Fibonacci - interesting read. I followed it on to another couple of Elle links to women in tech. I might have to find the Vogue article now, to compare and contrast.

(This is all your fault!)

Forgot to say - Fibonacci - yanbu re article and its perspective on tech, but perhaps yabu to expect much from vogue? (disclaimer - haven't looked at vogue for ~20 years so could be talking out of my arse)

(But you have to get through 400 pages of adverts before you get to any real content in he he American ones)

I have a complicated relationship with fashion magazines. On the one hand, I love love love clothes and makeup. OTOH, I actually own very few clothes because I tend to buy only what I love and am happy wearing it day in, day out until it falls apart, so I'm not a great consumer. I got frustrated with the British and Spanish magazines years ago because they are so effin' vapid, but the American ones are really good, and lately have tons of really good articles on women in IT and politics, which I really appreciate.

My local library subscribes to vogue and several other magazines - and you can read them online if you register/log in with the e-library. Worth checking what your area has, maybe.

I've never looked at them myself - only discovered it recently. i used to quite enjoy browsing through a magazine a decade or so ago, but when I see them now, I mostly think "wtf is this vacuous sexist consumerist crap?".

Same with tv adverts - didn't have a tv for years, so, without magazines either, went pretty much went going cold turkey on advertising. Now when I encounter tv advertising, I find it shocking - really, those same old, tired old, stereotypes from my 80s childhood, still there? Women are either efficient mothers or sexpots, men are crap fathers etc. But I guess i don't see it often enough to know - is this broadly the case still?

((Not sure what the MN parser has done there))