Feminist Pub 14: The Bluestocking, a place for feminist chat and feminists to chat

I've worked with women who have used flirting and sexuality to get on, and it can be infuriating. But I don't think it's ok to sink to patriarchal style dismissal of women for this - it's a response to a sexist world, which is the main target for our anger.

Totally, completely utterly agree with this. It's divide and rule. Sexist/misogynistic men absolutely love having women as their allies/enablers and they use it to discredit feminism and feminist arguments. It is incredibly frustrating though, yes.

Such lovely news, Trevor! Yay!

Great news Trevor

Brilliant news Trevor

Good news Trev!

Pretty cold here...

Really pleased for you and your mum Trevor , have a on me.

Ellis I didn't think you were being judgemental either, and I think it's good that this is a place where we can challenge each other on our attitudes and values. I'm sorry about the misplaced lighthearted remark about the pub atmosphere, it wasn't meant to be personal about anyone. Too much late night working is bad for my judgement.

I've worked with women who have used flirting and sexuality to get on, and it can be infuriating. But I don't think it's ok to sink to patriarchal style dismissal of women for this - it's a response to a sexist world, which is the main target for our anger.

And yes the NHS is amazing, and very much under threat at the moment

Hurray! Great news Trevor, thank you for telling us

Thanks chaps .. the NHS is a wonderful thing

Trev that is just the best news.

Congratulations,Trev!

Really pleased for your DM Trev, what a splendid Christmas present

Wheeeee my mam has just been discharged by the breast cancer consultant fill the bar!

The male patriachy is doing enough as it is, it doesn't need any more help!

I remember a chat with a women couple years after graduation whose male boss was fast tracking her as she was doing so well, and she was being stonewalled by other women in the team and she had heard rumours being spread that she was screwing him. She was adamant he had not made any moves - not like that.

Hey Eilis, that's fine . Many of us have been that "woman that the patriarchy would like to fuck". It comes with the territory of being female. I have nothing against the person I have described up thread, but it is interesting to note these 'strategies' women take on in order to survive in a male dominated corporate world. Its fine that you don't like the term that I have used - I am ok with that. Not everything I write will be met with acceptance. And I am sorry that those words caused offense - there is, and never was, any offense meant.

And if it makes you feel any better, the first job I was hired for was because I was young and 'patriarchably fuckable' (although I did have a degree to back it all up). I was appalled when I went to a company meeting to find that I was just one of about a hundred beautiful young women in this company . As a former sales person in my industry, its all about a woman's looks.

I will admit it has hit close to home, in the sense that I feel personally upset for personal reasons. I admitted upthread that I have been close to a lot of attractive dolled up women who have not received the respect they were due at work. In one case I was her manager and I witnessed first hand several people, including one very senior woman, trump up nonsense rumours that she was a workplace bully, because they didn't like that she was so attractive. I took place in a full enquiry run by HR (there was nothing in any of it and I was glad I was there to ask the right questions and go into it all fully) - and the awful stuff, about the machinations that had taken place in order to discredit this woman, were appalling. It really stayed with me how deeply misogyny has entrenched our culture, and how hard some men, and women influenced by men, find it hard to like or respect a pretty woman.

(In the interests of full disclosure. I am not pretty, or glamorous. I've got 99 problems, but that ain't one!)
(but yes, to drag up a hackneyed phrase, some of my best friends are pretty women. Some of them are glamorous too.)

In fact everything about how women are treated in the work place hits really close to home to me at the moment. I have a lot of heart ache on this subject right now. And excuse me for being a terrible old slushy fool but I want to come to these boards to find a little love for women, to soothe my aching heart.

On that note I would like to apologise for introducing a note of discord to our usually very friendly pub. I would like to apologise for whatever part I have had in it. but I really don't feel I brought it here. I really don't think our pub is a woman-friendly place if it is ok and unchallenged to express annoyance at a woman you work with by disparaging her as a "fuckable blonde". If I have dramatically misjudged the tone of this place and I am, in fact, the problem, tell me now.

Zazzles, I don't mean to be judgemental and I promise you that I am looking to "win" or anything here. I truly have nothing against you and am not being fitey for the sake of it and hope to avoid any kind of entrenched resentment. It is clear from all your posts about work that it is a pressured, stressful situation and I get that. I hope you are getting some time off over xmas.

Hmm, I am thinking my post about this woman has hit Eilis far closer to home than she is willing to admit... Time for some self-reflection, Eilis? Some 'truths' are really hard to swallow - aren't we all here to raise our consciousness to the next level? You've admitted that you aren't sitting where I am, aren't dealing with the dynamics that I am dealing with, and I am glad that you are willing to leave it at that. Thank you for your judgmental post though.

YY Elis. And I know people who don't dare to wear certain things to work so as not to look more out of place then they already do - ie, like women.

Have been busy socialising and not paying attention to news. Don't understand how people can be so nasty.

Never thought you did EE.

It's all just horrible. Really horrible, so I'm going to bed.

Jeez Puffins what a hideous X post - obviously I didn't mean your post when I said earnest. I'm really sorry about the juxtaposition.

I have been thinking about Jackie since reading that article, how awful that she's now got yet more to go through. And no one is interested in exposing the rapists and splashing their names all over the web I suppose.

YY Ellis. Just wanted to say I agree. There are all kinds of women in my workplace and we are all in this shit together - let's stick together.
Not very articulate but I wanted to pipe up about it