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Original poster

Should the UK law on rape be changed?

135 replies

prashad · 13/11/2014 21:32

I anticipate some flack for this post, but please hear me out and hopefully we can have an interesting discussion about this.

UK law current states that rape is necessarily committed by a man; that the perpetrator has to insert their penis into the victim. Of course, this means men can rape women, and men can rape men, but women cannot rape anyone.

However, many people would define rape as 'forcing someone to have intercourse against their will'. In the dictionary, rape is defined as;

"1.
the unlawful compelling of a person through physical force or duress to have sexual intercourse.
2.
any act of sexual intercourse that is forced upon a person."

It is my view that according to this dictionary definition, a woman can rape a man. Typical objections include the issue of erection when not aroused, but we all know that men can have involuntary erections when not aroused.

In light of the feminist aim of equality, should be campaign to change the law so that men who have been raped by women can have justice?

I know men who have woken up with a woman on top of them, or who have drunkenly had sex with a sober woman that they otherwise would not have slept with. Perhaps it occurs more frequently than we may think but men don't report it?

I am well aware that the above mentioned hypothetical assaults are against the law in the UK, but called sexual assault, and that the maximum sentences are the same, but why not brand such women 'rapists'?

Conversely, how would you feel if the rape of women by men was just called 'sexual assault' instead and the term 'rape' abolished from our lexicon?

Some men that I have spoken to about this are frustrated and unsupportive of feminism because of the perception that it seeks to increase the rights of women, rather than seeking to promote gender equality... and they site the lack of campaigning by feminists on issues where men are disadvantaged. Do you think that campaign for equality in rape law would be good for feminism because it would show a concern for equality in an issue where men are disadvantaged?

I'd also note that other countries (such as the United States) have updated their rape laws so that women can be convicted of raping men.

Thanks for reading.

OP posts:
GarlicNovember · 14/11/2014 00:22

I still fail to see how this is an "issue where men are disadvantaged". Are you saying more men want to be raped?

AWholeLottaNosy · 14/11/2014 00:21

If you want some hard facts about statistics re rape and sexual assault, here are the figures from the 2012 British Crime Survey ( including the 85,000 women and girls who were victims of rape)

www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/214970/sexual-offending-overview-jan-2013.pdf

Original poster
prashad · 14/11/2014 00:20

scallop...

Probably.

The problem I'm talking about is that when we talk about the incidence of crimes vs the reporting of crimes, the figure for the true incidence is nothing but an estimate. Since if you were to collect data from a sample of the population asking something like, "Have you been a victim of so and so crime?"... there is no way of establishing the truth of the answer. You just take the result as a given and use it as a comparison against the number of people who reported. It's not very scientific, but it's the best we've got.

Similarly, criticism of conviction rates assumes the guilt of a percentage of those found not guilty.

OP posts:
scallopsrgreat · 14/11/2014 00:19

Yy Sabrinnnnnna well put.

And to deny that does harm women, prashad.

GarlicNovember · 14/11/2014 00:19

Thanks, scallops.

Why the bloody hell would we want to model UK law on US law?

Sabrinnnnnnnna · 14/11/2014 00:18

Rape is a crime committed by someone with a penis. It is specifically a crime of using the penis as a weapon. Rape can indeed be committed against men and boys too, by people with a penis.

However, rape is an act of violence, predominantly against women and girls. It is used as a weapon of war, it is used as an act of power against women. It is used to impregnate women, and harm, or kill them. It is used to force them to carry the children of their enemy (as in the Yugoslav wars) It is not purely an unwanted sexual act - it is a violation, an act of power, violence against a woman, an act of dominance, of control.

scallopsrgreat · 14/11/2014 00:16

Or maybe there isn't a mood for change and you can't see why?

I don't think the US are paragons for equality and women's liberation. Far from it.

scallopsrgreat · 14/11/2014 00:15

That poll was just meant as example btw, not the definitive authority btw!

Original poster
prashad · 14/11/2014 00:15

If they thought it important enough to change in the United States, perhaps there is a desire amongst the public for change even if you cannot see why?

OP posts:
scallopsrgreat · 14/11/2014 00:13

Yes Garlic, police data suggests that. And there was a poll here.

Yes prashad there is are great problems with the methods of collecting data with regards rape. I suspect we are thinking of different problems though.

GarlicNovember · 14/11/2014 00:13

But you're still arguing about a word, OP. it's ridiculous. All the other things you describe are already crimes!

Firearms Act 1968, Section 16: Possession of a firearm or ammunition with intent to endanger life.

Should this be extended to include possession of a teddy bear or any other object with intent to endanger life? Grin

Having intent to endanger life is already a crime. Having it while carrying a gun is a differently-named crime.

Sexual assault is already a crime. Doing it with a penis is a differently-named crime.

Words for crimes! If you're too lazy to even start a petition, you're on a hiding to nothing with the entire body of English law.

Whiskwarrior · 14/11/2014 00:11

Do we have an influx of rape apologists tonight? Because we have a great one (albeit not a new one) on the Ched Evans thread too.

Hmm
Original poster
prashad · 14/11/2014 00:10

What's weird?

OP posts:
PuffinsAreFicticious · 14/11/2014 00:09

Weird, you said you had only just started thinking about this......

YonicScrewdriver · 14/11/2014 00:08

Righty ho, night all.

Original poster
prashad · 14/11/2014 00:07

Garlic, thanks for the panacea.

I think our main point of disagreement is the extent to which the current definition of rape in UK law is a barrier to thinking of rape in terms of women raping men. For the United States, this was not a barrier and they changed the law to be gender neutral. I suppose we'll just have to agree to disagree on that issue.

Scallop... I'm wary of quoting statistics regarding this matter, since there are numerous methodological problems with determining how many people are the victims of rape (for either gender). It's simply not possible to accurately say how many women are raped, or how many men are raped.

OP posts:
PuffinsAreFicticious · 14/11/2014 00:06

Yes Garlic, they are also statistically more likely to over estimate women's violence to them, while minimising their violence to women.

And report the thread because MNHQ gets antsy about brand new sign ups posting ridiculously contentious threads while not being entirely truthful.

Original poster
prashad · 14/11/2014 00:03

MyNameIsInigoMontoya...

Regarding your first point: It's not for us to say what affect a man may feel when a woman has sex with him against his will, some men might be devastated by it in exactly the same way a woman would, no? We certainly can't use assumptions about how most men would feel as a basis for law.

Regarding your last point: The case of a woman raping a man has many of (but not all of) the same consequences since both kinds of rape carry at least an equal probability of pregnancy*. If the woman gets pregnant after raping a man, then the rape could have been used to tie the abused man to the abusive woman. Similarly, there would be mental, emotional, financial and social effects for the man too if he were to father a child through being raped. Men in this situation would not face any of the physical consequences of pregnancy and childbirth, of course, but there are still significant consequences.

*One could even say that female rape of men carries a higher risk of pregnancy, since men cannot take any action after the fact to reduce that risk (morning after pill, abortion, etc).

OP posts:
GarlicNovember · 14/11/2014 00:00

I didn't know that, scallops!

YonicScrewdriver · 13/11/2014 23:58

Good post, Inigo. I'd also add that the transmission of STDs is higher from penis to orifice than from orifice to penis.

Iirc, oral and anal rape used to be sexual assaults and vaginal rape with a penis was the first definition of rape - and I think the acknowledgement of the pregnancy risk is a part of the reason for this specific word for the crime.

scallopsrgreat · 13/11/2014 23:57

Men are more likely to report abuse, not less likely, Garlic.

scallopsrgreat · 13/11/2014 23:56

That arrow was meant to point too AWholeLottaNosy's post.

Not that I don't agree with yours Yonic.

GarlicNovember · 13/11/2014 23:55

I dislike the still-frequent "just hop on!" jokes that abound, and am aware that some men - probably far more than ever say something - have felt cheated/abused/disrespected by women having sex on them without consent.

But, firstly, it isn't technically rape; it's sexual assault. If violent, it's aggravated sexual assault. That's a serious crime.

Secondly, it's likely that few men report such abuse. I refer you to Nosey's statistics above, on unreported rapes.

scallopsrgreat · 13/11/2014 23:54

^ Yes that.

YonicScrewdriver · 13/11/2014 23:54

Even if folks agreed with you that changing the definition how you wish "wouldn't do women any harm", feminists tend to focus more on the many issues that DO do women harm. Which seems reasonable, don'tcha think?