Is male violence against women ever acceptable?

Snow, just to underline what Buffy said... You wrote "Yeap, the sexual assault is another side I hadn't thought about in regards to the topic of violence. But it is a massive issue, and I would agree it's unreported."

I'm very glad that you've realised this, but you must realise hardly any women would never need to have this pointed to them before they got it - it would have been so much a part of their lived experience since they hit puberty (the lucky ones... many women suffer male sexual violence during childhood).

A couple of other things spring to mind too, Firstly, where you're seeing individual facets of society all of which need to be given airtime in the name of equality, I think we mostly see parts of an interconnected pattern - and one of the important connecting features is the sex of the perpetrators (whether it's domestic violence, sexual violence, or male-on-male punch-ups on a Saturday night), there's a toxic version of masculinity out there which is common to all these acts of violence.

Secondly, and very importantly, we live in a world where men's viewpoint is the default. (If you don't believe me, look at yesterday's newspaper - a quality one, not a tabloid, and count how many articles are about male politicians, male bankers, male business people, male sports people, or go on, say IMDB, look at the last 10 cinema releases and ask how many of the films have a major female character who is there filling any role other than love interest for one of the men). You've come onto one of the very few female centric spaces on the internet, to a thread about male on female violence, and said as a man "why aren't you talking about female on male, or male on male violence?" That's actually, in context, a very aggressive act. You're centre stage in the rest of the whole damn world, now you're coming here and saying "put me centre stage here!"

If you still don't get it, ask if you would, for instance, go onto a website predominantly by and for African Americans, and enter a discussion on, say, the Rodney King case, demanding that they give equal airtime to miscarriages of justice and police brutality involving white people in the name of equality. If you wouldn't do this, ask yourself why it's different when the issue is sex rather than race. If you would, then probably there's no point in us trying to engage with you any further (and I really am trying to be polite here).

The Sian Massey clip above - that was clearly accidental he's going after the ball he's just kept in.

Nope, I disagree, you can clearly see he swerves to his left to run into her! If he was still running with the momentum he was going at he'd have ran clear past her!

Buffy

I can well imagine. People (generally young guys) troll everywhere. It was more in reference to this case - I don't think there was really anything misogynistic said. More just sidetracking/ picking on one small detail. But from other forums it does tend to be difficult to not react when you keep getting other crap from new/ the same old people.

The bloke mentioned in the OP is a dick and I wouldn't be surprised if it was at least partly intended. I've been at the receiving end of this kind of behaviour (using sport as an excuse for violence) in 5-a-side football.

The Sian Massey clip above - that was clearly accidental he's going after the ball he's just kept in. That's not to say she hasn't been on the end of any sexism (I'm sure we all remember the Richard Keys incident) - but if you so much as touch an assistant ref in anger the FA come down on you like a tonne of bricks.

He took some flack for not apologising or even checking to see if she was ok (which he had plenty of time for as Ms. Massey immediately got up and awarded a goal kick).

Buffy

I don't want to get the arguments started up again, just I would question you blaming it on misogynistic people. I have just joined, so have not seen if there is a big problem with this. However just because someone disagrees/ points out stuff for guys it doesn't mean they're misogynistic. I think the reason it was pointed out earlier was because all the other violence types were mentioned apart from female on male in a list. Other posters had mentioned any violence was unacceptable, just it seemed a bit strange with it missing out. However I don't think the poster meant it was ok, but was just wanting to highlight what they view as the much bigger issue.

SevenZarkSeven

"I haven't seen many women hit men in clubs but have witnesses quite a lot of brawls which have been all male.

That aside, and of course women do hit men from time to time, the thing that strikes me, is what about sexual assault in nightclubs? If we're talking "minor" unreported violence, then sure a man is more likely to be hit, or shoved, by another man or a woman. However women are much much more likely to be groped, have men grab their breasts or arses, stick their hands up their skirts, lick their faces, and all the other random shit that men do to you when you're young and out and about. None of this is reported either and while it's not "violent" in the same sense as a punch in the face or a shove it is certainly an assault and extremley common and unreported. Not to mention the fact that when women react unfavourably things can and do escalate into other undesirable behaviour like following, badgering, shouting, pushing, pulling, shoving, and, yes, hitting.

So I'm not seeing this men are at risk on a night out more than women thing. It looks different but it's all unpleasant and it's all assault. Talking about one and ignoring the other just minimises what women put up with and ignores women's stories and experience."

Yeap, the sexual assault is another side I hadn't thought about in regards to the topic of violence. But it is a massive issue, and I would agree it's unreported. In regards to the last point - I guess that's exactly why I was saying what I was saying - more trying to balance things out too - not minimizing either side. I'm not trying to push a misogynistic view, more (IMO) just balancing things and trying to learn from a different viewpoint/ experience.

Sorry taking the DC out but wanted to post while I remember.

Also just skimmed the thread hope this link the sort of thing that the OP is implying? (Sian Massey ref deliberately knocked over by a Cardiff City player areshole)

Has anyone had experience of boyfriends threatening male friends 'in lieu' of what they probably want to do i.e. threatening their girlfriend directly?

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/07/30/liverpool-discriminatory-sheet_n_3675430.html

Looks like this step forward was two years after the Suarez step back.

Anyhow, this is a massive derail. Sorry, Referee Buffy!

Glad to hear a major football team (albeit Liverpool) is doing the right thing. Its a bit like hearing that Hearts FC in Scotland is the first to introduce a living wage to all employees. On a more optimistic note, I think things are going in the right direction.

Wasn't it a Liverpool game where Andy Grey and Richard Keyes had insulted a Liverpool lineswoman? Maybe this provided the impetus to start changing their attitudes. However, they also showed OTT support of Suarez even though he was found guilty of racism. One step forward two steps back.

Quite, Lurcio. Quite.

Thanks for the heads up, Yonic. Should be well worth watching - Germany (the women's team) play fabulous football - an open passing game with really inventive midfielders. (I think on the men's showing in the most recent men's World Cup that they may have learned a thing or two from their women's team - seems the inspiration has helped them to shed the boring but worthy image they've been dogged by for decades).

You often hear the terms "he plays/runs like a girl" etc as an insult. It is very depressing,

Agree. I think one of the football teams (Liverpool?) have banned this kind of insult.

England-Germany game on Sunday, 3pm, BBC2, if people wanna see what "playing like a woman" looks like

I agree with Buffy's last post, though I think people are being too lenient on Zazzles, maybe its because she is a regular poster on the FWR board. I don't know her previous posting history but she has been been incredibly rude to people on this thread especially twofalls. Twofalls has apologized now a few times but the apology is coming from the wrong person. There was a thread recently about why people were too afraid to post on the FWR thread, and I would argue it is because of responses such as those exhibited here.

On a different point, I agree there is a strong undercurrent male view that losing to a female shows you are less of a "man". You often hear the terms "he plays/runs like a girl" etc as an insult. It is very depressing, especially when we are trying to teach girls about self worth and they are confronted by those insults, often directed at boys on a regular basis. We need to start locally by having an ethos and teaching our boys and girls.

I agree Buffy. I think zazzles was being unnecessarily rude and getting personal. Instead of just sticking to the discussion. Some people relish doing this to people and seem to get off on it.

I was apologising to anyone of the thread I had offended, do you want to deliberately misunderstand my points?

"I don't value what you think of me all that much. Does that make things clearer?"

Well thats something we can both agree on.

It appears to me you are apologising to Buffy.

And no I don't address points that I don't think are valid, why should I? Just because you believe I was attacking you, doesn't mean I believe it. Why should I change my position just because of your judgement of me??? For what its worth, I don't value what you think of me all that much. Does that make things clearer?

It appeared that way as you referred to me in a couple of paragraphs so I was just making it clear to others who may not have read the thread.

And you obviously missed this paragraph:

"Buffy I totally get all those arguments and totally agree with them. I didn't come on here and say "but what about the menz". I asked why a type of violence was actively left out of a list of what was deemed unacceptable. That is all. Having searched through some other threads however I see how some have been derailed in that way. I never post here so didn't realise that would be the effect of my question. For that I apologise.

But hey, don't bother addressing the other points I made.

I didn't make all those points you have put in bold

Err, I know that. What makes you think that I was addressing those points to you??? Fucking hell, you just keep on proving my point...

And you didn't apologise to me, you apologised to the OP.

Just to make it clear, I didn't make all those points you have put in bold zazzles. In fact, it was only the last point I made.

I have apologised for how my post must have come across but you have chosen to ignore that. Buffy actually explained what was behind your agression and I thank her for that.

You have judged me and personally attacked me throughout your posts the lastest one being " I have seen your personality type in many many circumstances, and it never ends well for your type". You have accused me of having a misogynistic agenda, that I have gaslighted you and I am a handmaiden to the patriarchy. None of those things are correct and nothing I have said supports your accusations, but hey it fits your agenda to believe it is the case. And have I personally attacked you, patronised you or insulted you in return? No.

FWIW (probably nothing as you have already made up your mind about me based on very little) I have campaigned for my local refuge and regularly donate goods. I have actively supported Mumsnet's "I believe her"campaign and Frothy's support of Ched Evan's victim getting many Facebook friends invovled in her campaign, I signed and shared the petition against Ched Evans, and Julien Blanc, I have supported a friend as she left an abusive relationship and have taken a previous employer to task over unequal pay for men and women (and won). I challenge misogyny and victim blaming where I see it and teach my daughters about equality. I am sorry if that doesn't make me a good enough feminist for you. I don't spend much time on Mumsnet these days because my job is very busy and rarely take notice of the topic when I do. That of course will change in the future and you will be very pleased to know I will be avoiding this topic as quite frankly I don't need to be judged, insulted and attacked by a stranger on the internet.