"Drinking in pregnancy could be made illegal"

AskBasil I completely agree.

You can argue round the edges of it - it's a simple thing, it's something any woman can take charge of (unlike a partner's behaviour or a car crash, say), but ultimately it's about control.

I wonder, though, if we had public health campaigns saying things like "Is your wife having a baby? Step up and do more housework, you lazy git" or, "Are you stressing out your pregnant employee? Watch out or she'll sue you", or even "Don't sell alcohol to pregnant women or you'll lose your licence" it wouldn't just make pregnant women even more public property than they are now.

Basil you've hit the nail on the head there. I had no idea till my midwife asked me about dv that it was so common in pregnancy - its really not known or spoken about at all.

Compare that the the whole no wine during pregnancy? Everyone knows that - even though we don't really know how much it does affect the baby .

I don't see how a child receiving payment for being a victim of crime leads directly to women being prosecuted for drinking.

Even if the civil claim was to succeed, that still does not create a new criminal offence. Parliament would need to pass new legislation to make drinking while pregnant a criminal offence. It would take a perverse reading of any existing law to say that police could already arrest women for drinking, and even a judgment in the child's favour would not change that position a jot.

Yes but they're quite willing to tell women to avoid alcohol altogether "to be safe" but they're not willing to tell us to avoid everyone who smokes, including partners, irritating in-laws etc., to tell us to avoid car journeys in case we crash, to avoid going to work if we feel a bit stressed etc... or to tell men not to drink just before conception or to avoid beating us up.

It's so clearly about controlling women. The whole thing. And yeah, I think you've got it spot on SpiritedQuill, it's basically an incredibly irresponsible and feckless use of public funds by this LA.

I don't know a huge amount about FAS but as I understand it it's a spectrum of issues that can be very mild or quite severe, and it's not known what level of consumption by the mother results in what level of disability in the child, hence the recommendation to avoid alcohol entirely "to be safe".

Batgirl that si an interesting point. I am 100% pro-choice, and I don't altogether agree, mostly because I can't imagine that happening in reality (a woman who isn't able to control her alcohol use throughout a pregnancy isn't going to suddenly wake up in month 8 and go, "Oh shit, I might have damaged my baby, I'd better terminate or I'll be in big trouble.") Also as far as I know FAS can't be diagnosed in utero or even at birth - it manifests later in the child's life, apart from the distinctive facial features, which again aren't always apparent at birth.

Is this a concept that originated in the States? On my last few visits to the USA I've notice the occasional poster in bars warning against drinking at all during pregnancy, something I've never seen in the UK.

Jeremy Vine's about to cover this now.

I say this as someone drinks practically no alcohol (glass of Baileys at Christmas/Birthdays) even when I'm not pregnant or breastfeeding.

Am I right in thinking that they don't know how much alcohol, at which gestation might cause FAS?

I don't understand how they could say this was criminal damage when there is not a law against it and it isn't clear exactly when that damage occurred. If she had had a miscarriage instead would that have been murder?

I find it disgusting that a local authority are using public resources to take on this case which is not in the public interest and could have serious consequences for women's bodily autonomy. Over what is essentially an accounting issue.

The child needs to be cared for and the cost of that care will need to be met by the public. Now we're not only paying for the child's care but also for both sides of a legal battle over which part of public finances foots the bill. If the child's special needs were caused by a genetic disorder, they would have just had to provide the care out of the LA budget.

If they don't have a big enough social care budget then they could have argued that they need more money from other LA departments to fund social care, increased council tax or made the case for greater funding for central government. Instead they have chosen to argue that a foetus is a person, and all the knock on consequences that may have for women's rights over their bodily autonomy.

We need to educate and support women who may have problems with alcohol/drugs/smoking etc not criminalise them.

is excessive drinking in pregnancy a real issue? I mean is the court considering criminalising the majority of women for something only a handful of women have ever done?
Also if FAS is yet to be proven why is this even in court?

how about breastfeeding?

or drinking in the evening while the kids in bed - to the point when one has consumed enough alcohol to become unable to drive to a child to A&E in the middle of the night?

would those things be illegal too?

I'm not a drinker and I would prefer if women made a choice to avoid alcohol, smoking, taking drugs etc while pg/bf or but to make it illegal to consume any alcohol at all is OTT to say the least.

And I do wonder how pg/bf women taking wine during Holy Communion could ever be made illegal

Its just like the personhood laws that exist in some parts of the USA.
Have one glass of wine then miscarry and look you're up on manslaughter charges!

Good point basil

How about smoking? And passive smoking from partner/other people once baby is born?

Askbasil. Thank you for that. It makes sense.

I was listening to the coverage of this on 5live. They, and other media seem to have missed a point that some here have touched upon. Could this result in more abortions? As in, a woman drinks heavily in pregnancy, there is a high chance of FAS, and possibly criminal charges / a prison term. Or she could avoid that by abortion. Which is perfectly legal up to term in babies with disabilities.
The being able to abort foetuses with disabilities til birth thing is horrible, but it seems so odd that if you essentially create a disability in a child you might be able to kill it with no repercussions but you'll be in trouble if you choose to give birth. Odd and wrong. I'm quite anti abortion for this board but in this case I think pro life and pro choice are entirely on the same page.

The single biggest predictor of whether a child in the womb will be damaged, is if the mother carrying that child is a victim of domestic violence.

3/4 of physical abuse, starts when a woman is pregnant or in the first year after giving birth.

But for some reason, the media likes to talk more about alcohol damaging foetuses, than domestic violence damaging foetuses.

Can't think why.

I've worked with young people with FAS and it's a life long devestating preventable disability. I judge women who drink so much in pregnancy that they ruin the life of their child(assuming they know they're pregnant)

However, drinking in pregnancy can't be made illegal when you can terminate a healthy fetus to 24 weeks and some with disabilities to term.

Women have the right to do selfish things such as take drugs, smoke and drink alcohol.

I think it's completely disgusting but should not be made illegal. (and yes, I know substance abuse is a mental health problem)

If the child had been born prematurely and had life-altering problems because of that, because the mother had consumed lots of brie, quite legally, got literiosis and despite being aware of the dangers of listeriosis

Would this case be being heard, I wonder. I suspect the answer is not and the reasons for that show this whole thing up for what it really is.

I recently went to a conference with Herway Home and SheWay. They were talking about research that seems to point to the behaviours around misuse of alcohol and drugs in pregnancy being more of an issue than the alcohol and drugs themselves. Malnutrition, bad care or no care, homelessness, abuse, sex work, stress etc. So, alienating women who are using creates MORE harm rather than less. Working with women to reduce use while offering non-judgemental care and services seems to work.

Judging and criminalising women is so much more fun for people though

If you're the kind of person who is going to drink lots of alcohol during pregnancy, is a change in the law really going to stop you? I doubt it.

Meanwhile, people who CAN drink responsibly during pregnancy have their freedoms curtailed.

Not for me, Clive.

I feel sorry for this woman. She needs support rather than punishment

www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-29614413

I think some drinking is ignorance

I agree that it's a step backwards and unhelpful, as well as undermining female autonomy,

Also if the mother is frightened of arrest etc if she admits to drinking or drug taking then she isn't go to tell health professionals that she has, no matter how much she has taken, Which means neither she nor the baby will be getting any help or support with any potentially related problems.

Potentially it could be used against women in custody battles or etc, husband claiming woman drank during pregnancy, MIL threatening to tell authorities about sneaky half pint.

It's a slippery slope to wondering about the causes of miscarriage IMO.

We all make mistakes in life and sadly some of them have far reaching consequenes.

If someone drives at 35 miles an hour in a 30mph zone and kills a child then quite rightly they will lose their license. If a similar error of judgment caused a pregnant woman to crash her car should she be convicted of murder if she suffered a miscarriage?

I don't see how you can equate a pregnant woman drinking acholol to a wifeful murderer stabbing and raping a pregnant woman.

Would making drinking alcohol during pregnancy bring down the rates of FAS. Most women who drink heavily during pregnancy would not be deterred by such a law. I would feel really uncomfortable with jailing a pregnant woman without trial to stop her drinking.