"Drinking in pregnancy could be made illegal"

Drinking alcohol is not illegal. The fetus has no rights in UK law until it takes it's first extra uterine breath. How can drinking in pregnancy possibly be a crime? Criminalising drinking alcohol in pregnancy sets an extremely dangerous precedent in removing women's autonomy over their own bodies. Like others have said, there would be massive implications in terms of criminalising any behaviour which might possibly damage the fetus. Wrong, wrong, wrong.

Yy puffins.

I think the appeal court will say no again though, and I hope so, because there are other such cases ready if they say yes. I don't see how the current law could allow this so hopefully will be ok.

Yonic, it's fine, I'm not going back to that thread, one poster in particular worries the hell out of me.

This does feel like slippery slope, thin end of the wedge type stuff though. Yet another disadvantaged sub group of a disadvantaged group being victimised, with potentially disastrous consequences for all women.

This could potentially affect nearly 15 million women of child-bearing age in the UK.
There are 80 cases annually of FAS. The % risk of drinking causing FAS seems small and the interaction with other factors is complex, e.g. CDC study
A pregnant alcoholic might not think of abortion, but if she were arrested for drinking, her lawyer might explain the options: abortion or conviction / jail.

All part of a trend to prioritise a foetus, even before conception - not just before birth - above an existing live woman, e.g a doctor wanted to ban women of childbearing age from taking antidepressants BanMeds

Sorry Puffins, I posted on the other thread referencing your post, I hope I wasn't speaking out of turn

oh puffins

Does it also mean that women like me could be criminalised because I have 2 children on the autistic spectrum, which has a string genetic component? Especially as DS1 was displaying fairly obvious signs of it before DS2 was conceived?

DS2 has needed specialist education, and will probably need support for the rest of his life.

Or a friend who is a carrier for CF. Should she be criminalised if she becomes pregnant, and doesn't abort any foetus which tests positive for CF?

ok I'll just apologise for terrible typos. sorry
I'm sure you know what I mean

*who could potentially contract..

Yonic

a single drink

I asked this before but clearly there's no answer - what about women who take Holy Communion therefore drink a very small amount of alcohol while pg? I honestly don't see how that could or would be banned.

and why stop there? ban pate and blue vein cheeses. and sugar. and peanuts and seafood. and criminalise people who don't vaccinate their kids, therefore putting pg women in harm's way - coulf potentially contracte measles and have a late miscarriage. and should that happen that babies grandparents should also go to prison because they've also failed to vaccinate their own daughter!

what else?

This is just bonkers.....

Ah, I see your link now Yonic. Obviously I was being complacent.

I mean, there's still a leap to be made from a precedent in a compensation case to a woman being arrested and the CPS deciding to prosecute. But if the precedent does make that possible then we or I anyway shouldn't be complacent.

Because how someone be a victim of a crime without said crime being defined?

It's a good question. I don't know the answer but i feel sure the legal system would find a way to create a criminalless crime.

I can't believe that a council of all people would act so enormously against the interests of the female UK population in order to get some cash.

I sincerely hope that they fail in this or we are truly fucked, the ramifications are enormous. It would achieve in one move what right-wing religious types & anti-abortionists have been desperately trying to achieve in the US for years.

For fucks sake.

Wow. I mean, what is this about?

"if you have a single drink when you're pregnant"

NICE guidelines allow 1-2 units a week, iirc!

Oddly, Yonic, no. It was men saying that women who drink while pregnant should be criminalised.

From above link:

But she was alleged to have maliciously administered poison so as to endanger life or inflict grievous bodily harm, a crime under section 23 of the Offences Against the Person Act 1861.

However, the Criminal Injuries Compensation Authority challenged the judgment, and it was overturned in December by the upper tribunal of the Administrative Appeals Chamber.

Judge Howard Levenson found that there had been “administration of a poison or other destructive or noxious thing, so as thereby to inflict grievous bodily harm”.

However, he concluded that the girl was “not a person” in legal terms at the time because she was still a foetus.

The judge added: “I conclude that the section 23 offence cannot be committed by a pregnant woman drinking alcohol during her pregnancy and thereby causing damage to her unborn child and that, in the present case, no evidence or argument has been offered in respect of the commission of any other offence.”

Yes, looks like that's how this case first went through, and was then thrown out on the first appeal because of the personhood issue:

www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/10612818/Drinking-alcohol-during-pregnancy-could-be-ruled-a-crime.html

I think there is a crime to do with poisoning of a fetus.

The second from women?

There was a thing about this earlier on Facebook.

Loads of people saying that this was about policing women's bodies and similar.

Loads of others saying things along the lines of 'if you have a single drink when you're pregnant, you don't deserve to have children' 'if you drink while pregnant, you should be criminalised' and on and on.

Little game for you. Guess which comments came predominantly from women, and which came predominantly from men.

Breaking, there's no focus group. It's a test case - if the child can win compensation for its disabilities from Victim Support, then I imagine many other FAS sufferers (or the local authorities currently funding their needs) will follow suit.

Im curious as to who is pushing this, which focus group etc felt that this above many other things needs criminalizing?

"I don't see how a child receiving payment for being a victim of crime leads directly to women being prosecuted for drinking. "

Because how can someone be a victim of a crime without said crime being defined?

Ok I've got it now. Its because in this situation it is a foetus being killed (foetus=not a person) whereas its an actual born person who is living with the disability.
Still don't agree with it but at least now I understand what I'm not agreeing with!

amethyst I think you're right that its not exactly going to affect the birth rate on a statistically significant level. But if someone was unsure about continuing the pregnancy it might be a contributing factor.
What I was trying to get to was the paradoxical nature of the situation. Usually if you do something bad, death is the worst outcome, whether that's beating them up, bullying, road accident, medical error, neglect. But here, killing the foetus is acceptable, yet causing disability isn't. I'm struggling to get my head around that.