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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Will Misogyny bring down the atheist movement?

95 replies

Spero · 04/11/2014 15:12

It's a long article, but quite interesting about the problems some skeptics/atheists seem to have with women and asks why a progressive, important and intellectual community can behave so poorly towards its female peers.

www.buzzfeed.com/markoppenheimer/will-misogyny-bring-down-the-atheist-movement

I quote: The roots of today’s crisis can be found in the post-war history of the movement. The groups that make up the broader freethought community — atheists, who don’t believe in a god; agnostics, who are unsure; secular humanists, who seek to replace god-centered religion with a man-made ethical system; church-state separationists, who just want religion kept out of public life; and scientific skeptics, who work to overthrow superstition and pseudoscience — have two things in common. First, they oppose the hegemony of religious, including New Age, thinking in American culture. And second, they all have roots in very male subcultures.

So am I being naive in pledging allegiance first to humanism rather than feminism? Are the problems in male subcultures so deep rooted that my energies should be first directed at tackling those?

Interested to hear what other atheist feminists think.

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Sicksquid · 04/11/2014 20:21

Why would anyone think an atheist would have more compassion for women than a follower of Christ would?

Spero · 04/11/2014 20:03

Dawkins response to Elevator gate was pretty nasty and dismissive and that seemed to encourage others from the skeptic movement to pile in. Sad thing was they seemed to need very little encouragement.

Just interests me that the initial response was so hostile, as if dislike and contempt for women was bubbling very close to the surface.

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Spero · 04/11/2014 19:56

Maybe it's the wrong assumption, but the hate really took off after Dawkins posted his vile remarks. Certainly in the early days the haters seemed to identify as skeptics. Don't know about the more recent stuff.

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King1982 · 04/11/2014 19:17

Spero, I still don't understand how you know that the trolls on Rebecca's page are athiests? I asked earlier but I still don't get it, can you enlighten me please?

FuckOffGerbil · 04/11/2014 18:57

That was not the question you asked thought was it. Hmm

FuckOffGerbil · 04/11/2014 18:56

Not RTFT

BUT I think misogyny is in religion because people created religion and people have been misogynist for a long time. I wouldn't expect atheism to be free of misogyny for the same reasons.

I'll have a proper read and think tomorrow but basically I'd quite like to poke Dawkins in the eye with a spork.

YonicScrewdriver · 04/11/2014 18:34

Hoorah!

But boo to how vile it was, I couldn't get past five posts.

Spero · 04/11/2014 18:28

After re-reading Watson's Page o Hate I think I have to now identify as a feminist because the people who are hating on feminism seem so utterly, utterly vile.

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YonicScrewdriver · 04/11/2014 18:23

Agree, Spero.

Spero · 04/11/2014 18:16

Depressing. I had hoped that once freed from structural misogyny - which most would seem to agree is inbuilt into most religions - I would see a different approach. But it does seem that for many their ingrained response is to react to a woman saying something they don't like, by threatening her with rape and/or death.

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Shlep · 04/11/2014 17:53

Unlike religion where, within a faith, there will be certain commonly held beliefs like abortion, the ONLY thing which ties us atheists is not believing in a God/gods.

That doesn't say anything else about about us as a person. Being a horrible misogynist is entirely separate from that person's atheism. Unlike religion, atheism has no structural misogyny (don't know the right phrase, but you know what I mean) because there is no structure.

oneofthosenicemuslims2015 · 04/11/2014 17:48

Thanks for info on elevatorgate. Like most spats it seems it's something that just ended up detracting from the real issues.

Agree with pps, fair share of misogyny everywhere. Patriarchy is not just a religious construct. Is misogyny and patriarchy the same thing.

cheminotte · 04/11/2014 17:45

Surely an atheist is defined as someone who does not believe in God. You can't expect them to have anything else in common.

ILovePud · 04/11/2014 17:44

Whilst some atheists may be misogynists I don't think they are misogynists because they are atheists. The article doesn't really draw any causal links apart from some very tenuous links between 'freethought' movement and some anti-feminist views. Sadly I can think of many aspects of organised religion which serve to oppress women.

King1982 · 04/11/2014 17:40

Yonic, but atheism isn't in a vacuum from society

YonicScrewdriver · 04/11/2014 17:38

The reason why atheism:sexism are strange bedfellows is that most mainstream religions are patriarchal in nature (god the father and the son etc) so atheism/atheists might not be.

Unfortunately Dawkins, for one, comes out with some corkers..

YonicScrewdriver · 04/11/2014 17:36

Snug, it makes sense.

Dinglethdragon · 04/11/2014 17:33

This selection of Elizabeth Cady Stanton's writings is interesting - in particular the final sentence.
"Many a man who advocated equality most eloquently for a Southern plantation, could not tolerate it at his own fireside."

It doesn't surprise me to find misogyny in atheist groups - any more than it surprises me to find it in theist groups, left wing groups, right wing groups... I'm more surprised not to find it these days. But maybe I'm just a cynical old crone Smile

oneofthosenicemuslims2015 · 04/11/2014 17:33

I have no idea who Rebecca Watson is but the abuse is tragic. The fact that it centers on rape, calling cunt etc, people obviously want to make it as much as possible about taking control away from her in the most basic crudest way. Making it shameful to be a woman.

No idea if that makes sense 'out loud'. If not I'll just hang it with all the other stuff I'm currently failing at and blame it on sleep deprivation too.

King1982 · 04/11/2014 17:32

No I think they are different. The article link only has a small bit actually about athiests

Spero · 04/11/2014 17:29

I also assumed that atheist and skeptic were interchangeable??

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Spero · 04/11/2014 17:29

Sorry, I have unhelpfully assumed a lot of knowledge of the back story...
rationalwiki.org/wiki/Elevatorgate

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King1982 · 04/11/2014 17:26

Isn't being an athiest very different to a skeptic?
It happens all over the place football fans sending death threats to beckham. One of their own community.
Plus Watson would be targeted by anti-skeptics, misogynists and general trolls.

oneofthosenicemuslims2015 · 04/11/2014 17:26

Ah Richard Dawkins. Why am I not surprised Hmm

Berriesinautumn · 04/11/2014 17:24

'Kind of dents my belief that skeptics are just more intelligent/ thoughtful than the religious.'
Wow!
I have had feet in skeptic and religious camps.
The skeptics and humanist groups where I live I found to be a club for people who think the same things and have the same view on a collection of topics around the supernatural. I did not see a whole lot of critical thinking, free thinking or reflective thinking, and certainly no critical self reflection. What I did see was a bunch of people laughing at another bunch of people they thought they were superior to. It was a group for a self defined 'cool' club basically.
Know where I did see critical self inquiry and challenging of core beliefs? In the alpha course I did. There In The discussion groups I heard Christians really questioning and challenging their own beliefs. I respected that. I didn't respect the internal dialogue of the skeptics groups. That was just cheap sneering. I was disappointed. I thought a skeptical group would be, well, skeptical!