Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Is it just me? X-Factor...

34 replies

robindeer · 01/11/2014 22:48

The dancers.

Is it just me who finds semi-nude, writhing women slightly inappropriate on what is supposedly a family show? It's practically required viewing for many pre-teens and teenagers, is it really okay to see women on their backs with their legs apart in front of a group of pubescent boys? Or in denim cut-offs thrusting into a contestant, mouths open, porn-style?

I know I don't have to watch it...

OP posts:
New posts on this thread. Refresh page
PanIsNotAButterfly · 02/11/2014 21:31

Crumbs! I was a 70's boy (nothing can compare to it), and with a vague recollection of that second vid as it was shocking even then. Still, my!

vestandknickers · 02/11/2014 21:30

On what planet is X Factor family viewing?

I enjoy it, but there is no way I would let my 9 year old watch it.

Its tacky, but I fail to see any real problems with it as long as it is seen as adult viewing.

YonicScrewdriver · 02/11/2014 21:26

Blimey, I don't remember pans people like that!

I thought they had gauzy flared trousers and wafted about a bit!

KateeGee · 02/11/2014 21:23

For the record, especially with the benefit of hindsight, I am not suggesting we should take our cues on decency from what was on Top of the Pops in the 70s...

KateeGee · 02/11/2014 21:17

Hi OP, no worries, didn't think you were goading Smile. I'm not a regular either, just dip in occasionally.

I don't think X Factor is aimed at children. It's usually on around 8pm, beyond the bedtime of very young children I think? It finished after 10pm last night. According to this it's popular with young adults 16+ www.fremantlemedia.com/About_Us/Ratings_Highlights.aspx (how much dross does this company produce, incidetally?!).

This link www.itvmedia.co.uk/the-x-factor says the target is young (not children) and housewives with children, which in itself is a bit Hmm. But if those children stay up and watch it's the parent's lookout. I don't know about censorship of light entertainment, targeted at adults, broadcast around the watershed, on the off chance that a child might see it. Porn, yes, but a woman in hotpants, not so much. That's for parents to manage amd explain to the child.

I did wonder about Pan's People being quaint but then I looked them up and to be frank I found some of their routines worse than what I saw last night. This, (actually this is a bit Lady Gaga)

This this made even me Shock and it's nearly 41 years old. So I don't think things are worse today.

I'm 30 so the 90s were my era. It was obviously the greatest decade of all time, but I don't think things are worse now than then, I just think they are more visible. There was nothing like X Factor then, the nearest things were Top of the Pops or the Smash Hits Poll Winners' Party, which were both definitely aimed at kids or younger teenagers. Also there was no social media. But there was still sexualisation of women in pop performances. I distinctly remember an All Saints one (it might have been an MTV award ceremony around 1998) where they did Lady Marmalade (there's that song again) and on the "where do you think you're sleeping tonight?" line, they'd push a male dancer's head to their crotches as if they were giving oral sex. And they didnt want to be seen as sexy, they wanted to be about the music. I remember an interview with Mel Blatt moaning about when All Saints were booked in for an FHM cover shoot and she wasn't expecting what she was asked to do, and was offended at having to remove her cardigan. If I remember rightly the shoot went ahead anyway and was airbrushed to make them look more naked.

I don't necessarily think there is no cause for concern, and I don't think just because things have been a certain way in the past we must accept them forevermore, but I don't necessarily think things are worse today than 10-15 years ago (Thong Song), 25 years ago (all manner of rap videos that I used to see on music channels) or 40 years ago with PP, Legs and Co, Hot Gossip...

robindeer · 02/11/2014 20:26

I've only just seen your post on the other thread, I'm not a prolific mnetter so had missed that entire thread. Apologies if I've rehashed an old argument- not my intention and I hope my creating this thread hasn't been misconstrued as goady.

I do see your point about Pan's People but there are huge differrences between then and now. For instance, I don't think they ever appeared almost nude, twerking. They also tended to appear in place of the act, rather than to titillate the act, if that makes sense. Or at least to appear as if they are. Female artists were less obviously sexualised even so little as a decade ago. I distinctly remember All Saints being described as sexy because they were wearing vest tops. Of course there are exceptions but that is just the point, they were exceptions. Madonna would barely cause a raised eyebrow these days amongst Nicki Minaj, Rihanna and Miley Cyrus.

In terms of dance as performance art- absolutely. Who better as an example than Kate Bush? Often described as 'sexy' while never sexualised. Lady Gaga performs such hypersexualised routines and uses costume in such an extreme way that her gender itself has been called into question. God forbid a woman could be so in control while performing in such a sexual way.

My issue with the X Factor dancers is nothing at all to do with their ability, energy or commitment to their profession. I do doubt that they get a great deal of control over costume but that's a side issue. It's the normalisation of sexualised behaviour in women for an audience made up predominantly of children that concerns me. I hope this doesn't read as pearl clutching or prudishness, I am genuinely concerned about the impact the pornification of light entertainment is having on children. Girls and boys.

OP posts:
PanIsNotAButterfly · 02/11/2014 19:41

and Andrea wasn't 'spayed', as far as I could tell (no soprano notes hit)...he was 'sprayed'.Smile

TobyLerone · 02/11/2014 19:35

Suggesting or joking that dancers are told to "SHUT UP AND TWERK, BITCH!" does not sit well with me. it suggests that the dancers do mot know their own minds and have no agency, and it comes across as a bit dismissive and judgemental towards them.

I would have thought it was obvious that my judgement in making this joke was in no way aimed at the dancers. Apparently not. So I apologise if you took it in a way in which it was not intended and were offended.

PanIsNotAButterfly · 02/11/2014 19:30

and the attitudes not the clothes that need to change.

PanIsNotAButterfly · 02/11/2014 19:29

Really interesting post there Katee if I may say. Clarifies/challenges some quite mixed feelings/thoughts I have about the whole issue. fwiw from my pov none of it will be wasted and will def come up next Saturday! Admire your divisions between what is designed to be exploitative and frankly unpleasant and offensive, and what isn't.
yes the Meatloaf cover was the one most, for me, lead to a Hmm response.

KateeGee · 02/11/2014 18:31

Yes socially, X Factor actually does make me want to eat my own head, the clothes and dancing are probably the best things about it!

socially · 02/11/2014 18:28

Katee if I could "like" your post, I would Smile

I do kind of think that if you sign up to the train wreck that is X Factor then you lose the right to complain tbh. And the costumes are far and away not the worst thing about it....

KateeGee · 02/11/2014 18:20

Woah that was epic, I thought those were my abridged thoughts, I didn't even say everything I wanted to Blush

One other thing, a lot of these dancers who you think are being exploited are among those campaigning for fair pay - to be paid what they are worth according to their skill. Pretty feminist and empowered in my eyes, well more than I am in my humdrum underpaid office job. I've read a few interesting articles about this, will see if I can find any

YonicScrewdriver · 02/11/2014 18:16

Thank you for your post, Katee.

KateeGee · 02/11/2014 18:12

In the Anaconda video, Nicki Minaj simulates oral sex with a banana, rubs cream into her breasts, slaps the naked and jiggling buttocks of a dancer wearing a thong, and vigorously rubs her bottom in a man's lap, amongst other things. It is a song that says "look at my fat ass" and the video follows that. Nicki Minaj is not known for being subtle or tasteful, and Anaconda is quite extreme and a world away from X Factor. I'd say it's comparable to the difference between a rom com that shows a couple kissing and canoodling in underwear (which might make me roll my eyes a bit but I wouldn't mind seeing out and about) , and softcore porn which I would be quite shocked to see in a shop at 3pm.

I watched X Factor last night and didn't find any of it that shocking. I am not an X Factor fan really, I find it irritating for other reasons, but I occasionally watch it because other people in my house do. I've caught a few snippets this series. I watched it from the second performance to the end last night, because I had nothing better to do with my Saturday.

The singer with the afro had male and female dancers, the women were wearing long dresses split to the thigh but that's not awful.

The boy band had women dressed as cheerleaders but they looked decent as far as cheerleader outfits go - they were wearing tights and long tops, and their skirts were not ridiculously short. The other group had both male and female dancers, none showing an awful amount of flesh. The final move was flat on their backs with their legs open which in some contexts could look a bit dodgy but with the performance as a whole I don't think it was terrible, it fits in with the choreography.

The Italian man had some women in red lurex catsuits playing devils, in keeping with the song's theme and disco roots - it's a sexy outfit but is it wrong for a woman to wear a sexy outfit on tv? And they were not showing much skin. Alexandra Burke a few years back did a song with topless male dancers in tight leather trousers that you could see their package through - similar sort of thing.

The young girl in the feather skirt who sang Katy Perry's song, she had female dancers in white leotards I think. That's not overtly sexy, leotards are classic dancewear and the performance wasn't a sexy one, it had a black magic theme as far as I could tell.

The most sexualised performance was the guy who sang Meatloaf - he had quite a few women dancing around him wearing black semi opaque tights, red (quite covering) underwear and, over the underwear, black lace leotards that were cut in a way that you could see a bit of buttock. There was a storyline in the performance with a cage. But I still didn't think it overly explicit. They were wearing no less than you might see on a ballerina (is it a high vs low culture thing?), and the theatrics of it were appropriate for the song.

Bearing in mind the theme this week was Halloween - an event notorious for risqué outfits - I think all things considered X Factor was pretty tame last night.

As for the facial expressions, dance is telling a story with your body, and your face is part of that. Sometimes that calls for OTT hammy facial expressions. A blank face or a subtle face wouldn't have the same impact. When you train to dance you usually train to make your moves and your facial expressions big, the idea being that people in the cheap seats can see you on stage. When it's translated onto a high definition tv screen some people might find it a bit much. Also, sometimes dance is supposed to be seductive or sexual, so your face is part of conveying that.

Of the performances I have seen this year, the most Benny Hill-esque have been when the joke act of 2014 (Steve?) sang Rick Astley and Ricky Martin songs. In the Astley one, the dancers were wearing blue mini dresses, in the Martin one they were wearing very small shorts and crop tops. I (very) vaguely know a few of the women who were on stage and am pretty certain that none of them felt exploited or pressured. The context of both performances was pretty much laughing at, not with the singer. I don't think the idea was laughing at the dancers or seeing them as objects - they are more a vehicle for a storyline. The Ricky Martin one probably had the most revealing clothes, but it's a latin themed song, small clothes are the order of the day - in context it was ok. If it were Run DMC they would probably be wearing baggy, masculine hip hop gear.

Although some people say they don't have a problem with the dancers, they have a problem with the system, it can end up disparaging the dancers themselves. Suggesting or joking that dancers are told to "SHUT UP AND TWERK, BITCH!" does not sit well with me. it suggests that the dancers do mot know their own minds and have no agency, and it comes across as a bit dismissive and judgemental towards them.

I think it's all on a scale, I do not deny that this world has a problem when it comes to the objectification of women. There are times that clothes, or lack thereof, is an issue. I know why i might find a male stripper a bit naff and cringy, but find the female equivalent a whole lot more sinister and unsettling. Similarly I know I feel slightly different about a topless male dancer in tight trousers compared to a woman in an equivalent outfit. I get all that. But sometimes I just see entertainment for what it is. Page 3 is awful. Hardcore porn is awful. Blurred Lines was horrible. Anaconda is just a notch down so also quite grim. But I think in its remit as a light entertainment music based show, X Factor is not that awful and oversexed (again, I am not a fan so not defending it because I enjoy it).

There are sometimes when women's clothing is completely inexplicable to me - Hooters waitresses, air stewardesses in some cases... but I think a uniform is quite different from a costume. As a dancer you are doing a performing art, you are a work of art and are there to be visually appealing. The costume is a big part of that. Sure they could have done that Ricky Martin dance in leggings and full length vests but on this occasion they went for something different. It's supposed to be fun, dressing up is fun, play acting is fun. They don't always go for sexualised: the woman with afro sang Lady Marmalade, a song about sex, most recently associated with burlesque and Moulin Rouge. They didn't go down that road though - the dancers had red high waisted trousers, cropped tops and jackets. Nothing extreme really.

Yes the dances could have been done in more modest clothes. Similarly, women out on the town could do their clubbing in jeans or leggings snd t shirts. Indeed many do. But others prefer revealing clothes and there is no problem with that - why the hell shouldn't they enjoy their own bodies? If other people look and think "wow that's attractive" that's not inherently bad, humans are attracted to other people and people like to feel attractive, they're not bad or shallow because of that. I don't see a body as something to be ashamed of and cover up, there is nothing wrong with showing it off if you want to.

I think a woman should be able to wear what she wants, if that's arse flashing hotpants on prime time tv so be it. As that catcalling in NYC video showed, women are objectified whatever they are wearing. They can be walking down the street in black jeans and a t shirt, or they can be bouncing (not even dancing) around Robin Thicke wearing nothing but knickers. I simply think tutting about costumes and dance moves is hitting the wrong target, it's a bit of a red herring. The problem is not the skimpy outfit, but the fact that some people think that women in skimpy outfits are fair game for judgement, unnecessarily crude comments or worse - that goes for your woman in the street the same as the prime time dancer. So the attitudes need to change, not the clothes. Expressing yourself and your sexuality through clothes and movement isn't shameful. Maybe that makes me a terrible feminist, which is why I am reluctant to post here.

Scarletohello · 02/11/2014 15:00

I was just going to come on this thread and say the exact same thing about Pan's People gyrating around semi naked on TOTP in the 70s.

Not much progress at all there...

KateeGee · 02/11/2014 13:13

There's nowt new under the sun, Pan's People were doing this in the 70s. So the question is not so much "when did this happen?" as "have we not moved on?"

robindeer · 02/11/2014 13:03

If there's ridicule, it won't be from me. The dancers themselves are not the problem, it's the culture that says that highly sexualised dancing is normal and suitable for children to see. I have the same issue with music videos, they are basically soft porn and I'm not sure when this happened to female performers.

OP posts:
KateeGee · 02/11/2014 13:01

Hi Pan,

I probably will, I have a couple of points to add (I'm gathering my thoughs and typing in between cleaning and getting ready to go to a class with a tv dancer, funnily enough). My other posts about dance were just for illustration on one of the "I wonder why people are reluctant to post on FWR..." threads.

PanIsNotAButterfly · 02/11/2014 12:53

hi Katee, thanks v much for your posts. Try posting the response please, and ignore the poss ridicule? It'd prob help a lot with comments between me and dd and maybe others.

KateeGee · 02/11/2014 12:49

Hi,

It's me who posted on the other thread, could feel my ears burning.

I've typed a lengthy response but am reluctant to post. I fear being met with ridicule. "Shut up and twerk, bitch", is definitely not how it goes.

chockbic · 02/11/2014 12:45

It's just so grim and predictable.

Even worse, Steve Ritchie is an actor Shock

TobyLerone · 02/11/2014 12:44

DH and I were saying the same last week. We came to the conclusion that this must have been their brief in rehearsal:

"Take your clothes off, put on these binbag pants, do some writhing".

"But I'm a classically trained dancer..."

"SHUT UP AND TWERK, BITCH!"

PanIsNotAButterfly · 02/11/2014 12:36

I really liked reading Katees posts there. Obv makes it clear why they can't do what they do with more clothes on, and interesting what she says which I read as 'society's view of dancers is from the outside looking in, and draw conclusions, whereas we/they actually do this thing called dancing looking out.'
Tho' it still doesn;t deal with the slight twerking thing and the orgasm faces that pops up now and again...but good to read.

PuffinsAreFicticious · 02/11/2014 11:43

It was this post, a woman called KateeGee (just in case my copy/paste doesn't land in the right place!)